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Hello, Mr. Garcia.  I hope you are well today.

Well, I’ve got another question for you.  Now, I know your tendency to avoid answering straight questions, as Chris and several other people have noticed as well, but rather to change the subject.  

So, I will make this question very simple.  Hopefully you can handle it, without getting sidetracked.

It comes from the post, which contains the latest invented, made-up conversation that “Richie Rich” claims to have had with a “Baptist”.  (Don’t worry….We Baptists actually laugh at the stuff he claims that this “Baptist” said, knowing that no Baptist worth shooting, would say it.)

But its this statement in your reply, that I wanted to ask you to expound on…..

YOU:  “Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell. They go there to be punished for their sins for all eternity. They are sent there to be burned alive forever and ever day in day out to pay for theirs sins."

So, according to you, we “already know” that Baptists teach that “only bad people go straight to Hell?”

Well, I’m a Baptist, and that’s news to me.  And I think that I’m in a much better position than you, to comment on Baptist teaching.  

In fact, it would seem we have YET ANOTHER one of your blunders, and examples of your inability to get anything factually correct.  

So, my question….Would you mind telling me which “Baptist” groups teach that only bad people go to Hell, and that good people go to Heaven?  You claim to know so much about our beliefs and practices, I am sure this will be a slam dunk for you.  Please provide documentation, if you will.  

Are you not one of the people who cries the most about your belief “being misrepresented falsely”, Eddie?  If so, then why is it okay for you to do it to others?  Please answer that. I'd really like to know why the hypocritical double-standard.

On a side note, one of the several reasons I have always given for why there SHOULD be non-JWs here in this forum as well as JWs, is so that there would be somebody here to set straight JW lies and misrepresentations about the beliefs of born again Christians.  

On that note, I want to publicly thank you for making the above comment, that reinforces and proves my statement that we should be here, for that very reason.  You confirmed what I have been saying....JWs misrepresent our teachings, and somebody needs to be here to call you on it.  Thank you, Eddie.  You just proved my point.  

Your comment was a total misrepresentation, and I think you know it.  And you’re the very person who screamed bloody murder and CLAIMED that I said that JWs think only 144,000 are saved (although I  said the very opposite, and you just don’t comprehend very well), and then cried about your teachings on salvation being “misrepresented”.  

So then, why can you do it to others?

In summary, my questions are…..

1.  Which Baptist groups teach what you claimed, and provide documentation.  

(Sound familiar, Eddie?  Let’s see if you can do better than you did last time.)


2.  Why do you complain about your beliefs being falsely “misrepresented”, but you think its okay for you to do it to others?

Of course, making me post your rejection, will only make you look like a liar again.  So, you will probably want to answer this question, as SURELY you would not have willfully misrepresented our beliefs, would you, Mr. Garcia?

Answer
>>"Do You Know Baptist Doctrine, To Be Commenting On It?"

..."So, my question….Would you mind telling me which “Baptist” groups teach that only bad people go to Hell, and that good people go to Heaven?  You claim to know so much about our beliefs and practices, I am sure this will be a slam dunk for you.  Please provide documentation, if you will."<<


What a strange question to ask. Especially from someone like you, by someone who seem to "know it all". Strange indeed, it is as if the Baptist doctrine of Hell/Hellfire is a long held secret and only but a few knew about it.

My antenae are up. What are you up to Slick?

Even more stranger is your admission that it's "news to [you]".

>>"Well, I’m a Baptist, and that’s news to me .  And I think that I’m in a much better position than you, to comment on Baptist teaching."<<

What? Why is this "news to you" ? Do you really and honestly want us to believe that you're too IGNORANT to what the "Baptist Faith" says about Hell fire?

And how could this be "news to you" if you're a Baptist? I mean Baptists are known to be the best preachers in "town" when it comes to Hell. I mean they can even scare the socks out of you! LOL!!! In fact some of the friends in my Kingdom Hall are former members of the Baptist Church. They used to tell me about the "Fire and Brimstone" sermons they heard from the pulpit. So to say this is "news to me" is very suspicious, if not an outright lie. Especially knowing the fact that you said this:


>>"Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."<<



What are you up to Slick? I guess will have to see.


So...
"Do [I] Know Baptist Doctrine, To Be Commenting On It?"


Why yes. Of course I do. Come on Mr. Holland, for an "intelligent man" like you, such question is somewhat silly, especially in the age of internet / Google.

Do I know...
" which “Baptist” groups teach that only bad people go to Hell, and that good people go to Heaven? "

Of course I do. But since the Baptist organization, sect or religion (if you prefer) is composed of many independent denominations, it's going to take time to cover all of them. So in the interest time, I'll just pick one of the largest Baptist denominations here in the US of A, the one composed of many churches.

The SBC.

http://www.sbc.net/
http://thomrainer.com/2013/01/26/largest-churches-in-the-southern-baptist-conven
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baptist_denominations)

Yes, it's the gun toting, gun packing, and gun promoting Southern Baptist Convention denomination, also  known as the Southern Baptist.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/10/287311237/kentucky-southern-baptists-draw-crowds-w
http://www.bpnews.net/39673


And since you've admitted your "ignorance" of what the Southern Baptist teach and preach about Hell / Hellfire doctrine. Let me then provide for your education their Official teaching - the "Baptist Faith" on HELL / HELLFIRE.

From this Baptist Website: http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp, - you can read the following:

=====
"...
Southern Baptists have prepared a statement of generally held convictions called The Baptist Faith and Message. It serves as a guide to understanding who they are. Copies are available at Southern Baptist churches. The topics here provide only a brief, partial summary. The full text on the issue discussed is also available on this website."  

Then it said:

God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. …Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly…the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness.  The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."


Okay Mr. Holland. Did you see it? Did you understood what they said?

Let's look at it again, just in case you missed it.

The (Southern) Baptist Faith declares that:

The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."

Again for emphasis, it bears repeating so that your question can be fully dealt with.

Since you asked:

>>"Would you mind telling me which “Baptist” groups teach that only bad people go to Hell, and that good people go to Heaven?"<<

Again, from the SBC's Baptist statement of Faith, it declares that:

The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

Was that clear enough Mr. Holland? I hope so.

But since we know that you're one slick dude and will parse every word to save your behind and lay the blame on others, I need to be very clear about this. So please bear with me. The straightforward and simple to understand phrase: "bad people" that I used (in describing those who go to hell) are "the unrighteous" people. Hence when I said "bad people" I'm referring to those who are "unrighteous" in God's eyes. Am I clear on this Mr. Holland? I hope so.

If not please let me know so that I can further clarify it.OK?


But just in case you'll claim that I "invented" the information above and that the link to the Baptist website is also an invention of mine, I'll back it up with this.

From this website:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/southern-baptists-affirm-resolution-rejecting-

You'll read the following statements:

===
"Southern Baptists Affirm Hell Is 'Eternal Conscious Punishment'

The messengers to the SBC meeting voted to “hereby affirm our belief in the biblical teaching on eternal conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell.”

The three-paragraph resolution also urged Southern Baptists to hold fast to the teachings on the reality of hell and salvation found in Christ alone.

“RESOLVED, That out of our love for lost people and our deep desire that they will not suffer eternally in Hell, we implore Southern Baptists to proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone,” read the statement.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/southern-baptists-affirm-resolution-rejecting-

Again, since this is "news to you", let's take a look at it one more time.

According to the Baptist resolution, it AFFIRMED that Hell is an "Eternal Conscious Punishment".

"Eternal Conscious Punishment". Care to guess what do they mean by this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/16/baptist-belief-in-hell_n_877815.html


Here's another just in case this is still "news to you" and you're not convinced they said it.


From this website: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hell_eva2.htm

You'll read the following statements:

===
CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS' VIEWS OF HELL:
TRENDS & IMPLICATIONS

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC): The Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee reviewed past Baptist Faith and Message Statements. They issued a report on 2000-MAY-26, recommending major changes to be voted upon at the denomination's general meeting in mid June. Perhaps the most radical is the prohibition of ordination of new female pastors. Concerning Hell:
...
> The committee's year 2000 recommendations propose that the 1963 wording be retained. Hell will remain a place of eternal torture without any relief."


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hell_eva2.htm

Did you get what it said Mr. Holland?

Again, since this is "news to you", let's take a look at it one more time.

The Baptist "committee" said that:

" Hell will remain a place of eternal torture without any relief."

===
Now if the above documents are not enough to convince you, that the Baptist Affirmation of Faith clearly affirmed that:


The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."  

Let me add to it, this website: http://www.netbiblestudy.net/baptist/

In it, you'll read the following statements:

===
"Baptist Church Doctrines And Beliefs

    Most Baptists teach that all you must do in order to be saved and have your sins forgiven is to "accept Jesus as your personal Saviour".  They say that baptism is not essential to salvation and not essential for the forgiveness of sins.  They claim that they are saved and their sins are forgiven before and without baptism.  But where in the Bible is any of this found?  It is not there.  

    ...  People are given a simple choice: they can either believe and be baptized in order to be saved as Jesus says, or they can disbelieve Jesus and be condemned.  If one is not baptized in order to be saved, this shows that he does not really believe Jesus and because of this he will not be saved, but will be eternally condemned to Hell.   Baptism is not a work of merit of which man can boast, but one of humble submission and obedience to the command of God.  We cannot save ourselves, but we must surrender to God's requirement and let another baptize us for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38) so we can be saved (Mark 16:16).  In Mark 16:16 Jesus simply declares who shall be saved and who shall be lost.  The one who does not have enough faith in Jesus to be baptized to be saved, simply does not have enough faith to be saved."  

http://www.netbiblestudy.net/baptist/

Did you get it this time Mr. Holland?

Again, since this is "news to you", let's take a look at it one more time.

>If one is not baptized in order to be saved, this shows that he does not really believe Jesus and because of this he will not be saved, but will be eternally condemned to Hell.  

Can we say that those "not baptized" they are referring to here are considered "unrighteous" or "bad people"? I believe so because right after it, they said: "he does not really believe Jesus". Right? Of course I'm  right, unless of course you want to parse their words. If so, that's a sign of a really really desperate man.

But I hope this "new" information will now clear it for you.

If not, there are also a large number of YouTube videos showing your Baptist Preachers preaching, shouting to their audience how they should fear God because of Hellfire. But, that's up to you to look it up, if you really don't know your Baptist Faith on hellfire (wink wink).

And finally to add here your own words:


>>"Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ." <<


There, this should suffice. The information above and your own words should be more than enough to establish the fact that the "Baptist Faith" states that:

"The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

It should be more than enough to show that I'm telling the truth about the Baptist Faith.

But if you still insist that you're not aware of this doctrine (inspite of the obvious). Not aware of the "Baptist Faith" (inspite of the obvious as a Baptist). And that this is "news to you" as a Baptist, then, I'm sorry to say this but you're truly are something else, if not a pathological liar - even to your faith. You need help sir. Perhaps a psychiatrist?

You might need to consult our resident psychiatrist here. LOL!!!
====

Now what is Hell like? When ask, Baptist will usually cite and use the "Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man" to describe what hell is like. It's an unquenchable fire of incredible torment.

In fact, you Mr. Holland will probably use it, if not you may have been using it already to prove to your blind followers the existence of hell fire. If not, check out your brethren, they are will adept in using it to instill fear. Like snake oil salesman, they are really good at it.

LOL!!!

So what say you Mr. Holland? "Slum dunk" or Grand Slam?

All invention? If so, then please will you tell me, where did I "falsely “misrepresented” the Baptist's Faith doctrine on Hellfire?

Per your words:

>>2.  Why do you complain about your beliefs being falsely “misrepresented”, but you think its okay for you to do it to others? <<

Where did I "misrepresented" the Baptist Faith / Belief when I said this?


Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell. They go there to be punished for their sins for all eternity. They are sent there to be burned alive forever and ever day in day out to pay for their sins.

Can you answer? I doubt it much.

So now, since I've already proven that what I said is the truth, let me ask you then some simple questions about your precious Hell / Hellfire doctrine.

That is:

If you believe that "Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."  

In what shape, manner or form IS Hell a just punishment?

How "IS" "Hell ... a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."   when Jesus said the following?

““For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.” (Matthew 12:31, 32)

Whose idea is it anyway to say that "Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."  

Yours Mr. Holland or the Lord Jesus Christ?

Whose words are these: "Hell ... a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ." ?

The Lord Christ Jesus or yours Mr. Holland?

They are yours of course!

And if Hell /Eternal Hellfire is the penalty for the "unrightheous" "unforgiven", why did the Scripture say this then?

“For the wages sin pays is death,... (Romans 6:23)

“Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.”? (Ezekiel 18:4)

If the "soul" dies, what is being tortured, punished for all eternity?

If God was the one responsible for creating the "unquenchable hellfire", then why did He say this?

“‘For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’” (Jeremiah 7:30, 31)

" to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’"

If burning people in fire "never even come into [God's] heart" , why then are these preachers of yours saying the opposite?

Why do they say "The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell" ?
Why do you say ""Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."  ?

Honest questions needing an honest Logical and Scriptural answer from you.

Then there's also these nagging questions:

If you make it to heaven, will you enjoy living in happiness in there with the "Lord", while at the same time knowing that he is torturing your "unrighteous" loved ones in hell for all eternity?

If, like "Lazarus" your loved one who is in agony called on you in "heaven" for help, what would you do?

Will you shut your eyes and ears and pretend you didn't hear it, or beg the "lord" for help?

Also, what would it be like living in heaven for all eternity with someone who continuously punishes his "children", in an "unquenchable hell fire" forever and ever, day in day out for all eternity?

Do you know what this looks like? Someone who has the power to create the entire universe and all the things in it, yet have the capacity to inflict pain to a "mere dust" for all eternity? And you can't even question him about justice?

A bully! Yes, I'm calling your TRINITY godhead a BULLY! Because only a BULLY will act this way. A sadistic BULLY god at that! Just like Satan the Devil is a bully, so is a god that will punish his children forever in an "unquenchable hell fire".

For what loving and merciful Father will subject his children to such an agonizing, sadistic torture, burning them in a fire as punishment of sins?  I can't think of none except your TRINITY godhead. They are capable of doing it and are willing to do it.

You said so yourself.

"Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ." ?

And rather than be incensed by it, your Baptist Faith promotes it. Your Preachers shout it out from their pulpit. They instill the fear of God by promoting a horrendous lie - HELLFIRE.


Imagine that!

" Hell will remain a place of eternal torture without any relief." for the majority of "unrighteous" mankind, from Adam to present and all the way to the future. Billions and billions of "souls" are in hell and many more" will be consigned to Hell" by your Trinity god.

So, what say you? The one who says and believes that...

"Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ." ?

This you chance if you have the guts to defend your Baptist Faith and prove your accusation that I lied about your precious sadistic Hellfire doctrine.

What say you Mr. Holland?

Is your TRINITY TRIUNE god this wicked?


====
A short comparison with what the SBC said and what I said should show the agreement between the two statement.

SBC: The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."
SBC:"Southern Baptists Affirm Hell Is 'Eternal Conscious Punishment'
SBC: “hereby affirm our belief in the biblical teaching on eternal conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell.”
SBC: "..Hell will remain a place of eternal torture without any relief."
SBC: If one is not baptized in order to be saved, this shows that he does not really believe Jesus and because of this he will not be saved, but will be eternally condemned to Hell.  


What I said: “Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell. They go there to be punished for their sins for all eternity. They are sent there to be burned alive forever and ever day in day out to pay for theirs sins."
===









Additional info below on the Baptist Faith of Hellfire:
+++++
"Doctrine of hell consistent with God's love, speaker says at Founders

Preaching from 1 Corinthians 16:22, Nettles said that eternal punishment is consistent with God's love, holiness and justice.  

"Punishment in Scripture is always designed to be commensurate with the crimes that are committed," he said.  

"And if we view the death of Christ in terms of punishment, then we must recognize that the crimes that have been committed and that have brought the punishment are commensurate with the price that has been paid. There is an absoluteness and therefore an utter fairness to the justice that is set forth in Scripture."

Finally, the reality of eternal punishment must make believers concerned about those outside God's grace and should issue forth in fervent evangelism, he said."

http://www.bpnews.net/16340
Why even the First Baptist denomination says the same thing.
====
Statement of Faith
of the
First Baptist Church
of
Wayland, Missouri

Prepared by the Pastor and Deacons

January, 2000

Ratified by the Congregation

February 9, 2000


Section VI.       Concerning the Eternal State.


C.  We believe that the souls of the unbelievers, at the moment of death, are:

1.  Doomed to hell, a place of conscious punishment and torment, which burns with literal fire.

http://www.fbcwayland.org/doctrine


====

Here's another:

"HELL
Baptists believe Hell to be a real place existing outside of God—an eternal separation between soul and God. Baptists do not believe in a purgatory. Hell, they believe, was created originally for Satan and his devils as a place of incredible torment (Mat 25:41). Baptists believe that God never intended nor desired for a single person to go to Hell (2 Pet 3:9). They believe sin caused a separation between God and man, and that Jesus’ death on the cross is the only bridge to cross from death to life. This bridge, however, is accessible by anyone at anytime (2 Cor 6:2). Baptists believe a loving God went to supernatural lengths—by sending His Son to die—to provide everyone an opportunity to escape the fires of Hell and spend eternity in Heaven. Click here to discover how you can escape Hell too.  
http://www.christianbaptists.com/baptist-beliefs/

===

"PREACHING STYLE
Baptists are often associated with "hellfire-and-brimstone" preaching. This refers to zealous, forceful preaching, which seeks to evangelize the hearers by warning them to avoid spending eternity in hell. This style of preaching generally uses vivid descriptions of hell, citing biblical passages that refer to hell as a lake that burns with fire and brimstone (sulfur). In most cases, the sermon's message transitions from the horrors of hell to the crucifixion of Christ and God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

HELL
The majority of Baptists believe that hell is a literal lake of fire that burns with brimstone. This belief is based on Jesus' descriptions of hell as recorded in the Gospels, descriptions of the lake of fire in the book of Revelation and other passages in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Some Baptists describe hell less graphically as an eternal separation from God. Baptists agree that hell is an eternal place of punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

DAMNATION
Baptists believe that those who die without first coming to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ are condemned to an eternity in hell as punishment for their sins. Most Baptists allow for the possibility of exceptions for babies and those who are incapable of understanding right and wrong and the Gospel due to extreme mental disability. Because Baptists believe that damnation in hell is an eternal sentence to a real place of torment, they are all the more zealous to warn people through personal witnessing and fire-and-brimstone sermons."


http://people.opposingviews.com/baptist-beliefs-fire-brimstone-3362.html  

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