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Jehovah`s Witness/Old Testament Believers Suffering In Hell? That's MORE "News To Me"

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Question
It is certainly not my intention to be argumentative, or to take part in the immature and dishonest character attacks that these unqualified JWs are constantly resorting to.  But it is also necessary to not let lies go unaddressed, especially in regards to what a group or religion teaches.  

Our readers deserve better than what Rando and Eddie have been giving them.  I am of the belief, that they deserve the truth.

Fair is fair.  Eddie just had to be addressed for making the false claim that Baptists teach that “only bad people go to Hell” , which in fact, is NOT taught by ANY Bible-believing Baptist group anywhere.  

And now, Rando has decided to try and out-do Eddie’s lie, with some of his own.  I am starting to think that these 2 are in some sort of competition, to see who can tell the most, and the biggest lie in one month.  Right now, they are pretty much neck-and-neck, but I think with this one, that I might have to give the edge to Rando.

After writing himself the following question….

“I found this statement of the Baptist Doctrine to be very confusing and a deception of the truth. "Baptists agree that hell is an eternal place of punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."

Are Baptists claiming people like King David, Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and Able are in "an eternal place of punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ"??? This is Asinine!!!!!”

And then answering himself with some more of his outright distortions and lies, an answer to his distortions has become necessary.

Answer
Willy Wonka Learns From Rando
Willy Wonka Learns Fro  
No, Baptists do not teach that the followers of God from the Old Testament, are suffering in the torments of Hell.    

BUT....Neither are they living in a mansion named Beth Sarim, in San Diego, California, since 1925-1929 either, which was predicted by the Watchtower's 2nd President, Joseph F. Rutherford.  They were to arrive in 1925, and when this prediction proved a blunder, Rutherford maintained their arrival was just around the corner, and in 1929, the mansion named "Beth Sarim" (House Of The Princes) was built to supposedly "house" these Old Testament worthies.  In addition, they were also provided with not 1, but 2, sixteen-cylinder Cadillacs, to get them around town.  

How it was determined that the Old Testament worthies wanted to live in San Diego upon their return, and that they preferred Cadillacs to say a Ford or Chevy, is not explained.

And I'll give the readers 3 guesses, as to who ACTUALLY got to use the mansion, and the Cadillacs.  But its probably just as well, because I have found no hard evidence that Abel, Isaac, or Abraham even had a driver's license, anyway.

But just wanted to note that what Baptists believe about the Old Testament servants of God, doesn't hold a light to what the WT taught about them.

Rando asks:  "Do you really think it is fair that someone like Abel has been "burning" for about 5,000 years now and since Hell is an inescapable place of torment to last forever without end???  This is a very discussing and an asinine man-made doctrine!!"

No, I sure don't!!!!  And not only would that be "discussing", it would also be DISGUSTING!!  For a faithful servant of God to be tormented anyway, even after serving God, that is.  

But the only "asinine man who made" this doctrine, is Rando.  Baptists don't teach that Abel is being tormented.


Now, let's look at the accusations, as stated by Rando, in response to his question to self.....

RANDO:  “That is exactly what they teach. Baptist claim "that hell is an eternal place of punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ." Therefore anyone living before Jesus Christ and died is now in "an eternal punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."

Now for the facts….This is not “exactly what they teach”.  In fact, it isn’t even close.  

When Baptists say that a person who doesn’t receive salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, will go to Hell, they are referring to those living under the New Covenant, instituted by Christ’s shed blood.  Now of course, this would apply to a person under the Old Covenant, who did not fear God, seek God, nor serve God.  But it does NOT apply to those who did.  Before Christ’s death on the cross, His blood had not been shed for the ultimate atonement for their sins, and therefore entrance to Heaven had not been granted for those before Christ’s death (Elijah is another discussion altogether).  However, they knew of the promise of the coming Messiah, and they trusted in God to fulfill that promise, and they served Him and believed in Him, in the time that they lived in.  At no point did they ever suffer torment in Hell, which is reserved for Satan and his angels, and for those who did not place their faith in God, and now for those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   

Furthermore, the Baptist position is that these Old Testament servants of God, ARE in Heaven now, having been there since the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.  If these people would stop trying to twist Luke 16 into a parable that speaks specifically of their religion, they might figure some things out.  

In fact, Baptists believe that most of the very ones mentioned in Rando’s “question to self”, are listed in Hebrews chapter 11, as being people of faith in God.  In fact, this chapter actually deals with the Old Testament believers, who trusted in the promise of God, and tells us…..

Hebrews 11:13-  “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”

v. 14-16-  “For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Since Bible-believing Baptists believe the above passage of Scripture, then it becomes obvious that Rando is lying again, and that we do not believe that Old Testament worshippers of Jehovah God, are suffering the torments of Hell.  

What a ridiculous lie!


RANDO:  “Many Baptist claim that "John the Baptizer" is the first person that went to Heaven, which is an outright lie against the scriptures.”

Never heard that one before.  Why didn’t Rando give a credible source, where he got this information?  Why are Danny, “Joseph”, and the other cheerleaders so silent, when Rando tells outright lies?  If they are so concerned about “truth”, that is.  Why don’t they speak up and say “Uh, Brother Rando…I think you have it wrong. That's not what they believe.” ?

Just goes to show that this brand of "JW", doesn’t care much about “truth”.  


RANDO:  “According to their Asinine Doctrine, everyone or should I say ANYONE who has not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is burning right now. Do you really think it is fair that someone like Abel has been "burning" for about 5,000 years now and since Hell is an inescapable place of torment to last forever without end??? This is a very discussing and an asinine man-made doctrine!!”

As has already been shown, this is a false straw man, set up by Rando, to be attacked by Rando.  But the only thing Rando refuted, was his own lie.  Rando never once discussed anything that Baptists actually believe.  So, congratulations on lying, and then refuting your own lie.  Major accomplishment, right there.

What is “asinine”, is why someone would be so dishonest so as to knowingly MAKE UP a lie, write it to themselves, and then answer it, pretending to know what Baptists believe.

RANDO:  “Oops!! They got caught in their LIE.”

No, not really.  That was you, Rando.  You lied, and as always, you got caught.  Why would a real JW lie?  Why would other real JWs support a liar?  Those are the questions that none of them will answer.

But let’s just deal with the facts….

Neither Abraham, nor Abel, nor any Old Testament servant of Jehovah God, is suffering in Hell, according to Baptist teaching, nor the Bible’s teachings.  Rando simply stated an untruth.  In fact, why would we believe that, when we have passages such as the ones already listed from Hebrews 11, plus this one from Romans 4?

Romans 4:3-  “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Romans 4:6-9-  “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

“Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.”


And this passage is key….


Romans 4:20-24-  “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;”

Notice the contrast, but also the comparison, between Abraham and those of us living after the death of Christ.  As Abraham was counted “righteous” for believing the promises of God that he had, we will have righteousness “imputed” to us, by believing on the Father, and upon Jesus Christ.  

That “thud”, was Rando’s lie falling to the ground.  No, the faithful followers of God who lived before Jesus’s death, are not being tormented in Hell.

What an “asinine” thing to say.  And quite dishonest, to claim Baptists teach it.

Some additional reading on this subject, which explains this question quite well…..


https://answersingenesis.org/gospel/salvation/how-were-people-saved-before-jesus-came-in-the-flesh


http://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html


In closing, it is very obvious to the honest reader, that Rando and Eddie do not know what they're talking about, nor are they to be trusted to give honest or factual information.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

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High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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