Jehovah`s Witness/Worshipping Jesus like the WT

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Question
Hello Derrick, hope you are fine from all the attacks you've been receiving as of late.

Thought I'd make a few observations based on what I've  been reading lately.

Firstly, hats off to Eddie for coming clean on the old watchtower teachings. I'm sure for most jws it's hard to reconcile the fact that they once worshipped Jesus. That explains a  lot of the furor that I read about how we believe Jesus is God, when not 65 some years ago they were reading the same scriptures and came to the same conclusion. I don't understand how Russell or Rutherford didn't understand what worship meant. Even the Greek word for it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the word (proskinyne), that is, to worship, has the same meaning today. The meaning of the word proskinyne didn't change, only in certain verses that applied to Jesus in the NWT.  I try to reach Jw (A) this way by showing him things from the WT  that contradict his current beliefs.

It's like you said about Rando's attacks on the Baptists and the UN. I tried to tell Jw(A) about how hypocritical the watchtower was about this teaching and he refused to take my word for it. He even refused to look it up on his own, being a "waste of time". I also pointed out to him that his new religion predicted Armageddon more than once. Again he dismissed me, even after I showed him numerous articles written in the WT. So you see, even when confronted with evidence that comes from a creditable source, he still refuses to accept the truth. This from a guy that shows me a picture from the internet of a guy kneeling besides what appears to be Giant bones to provide this as evidence that giants were in the bible. Btw the picture was an example of forced perspective, to give the illusion that the bones were bigger than they actually are. His later explanation about Armageddon was that at first they did, but got the six thousand years formula wrong. Then he recanted and said they never predicted anything, that they were hopeful or expecting something to happen.   I can't imagine how he's going to take the news about the WT and worshipping Jesus. Probably the head in the sand approach since I'm an apostate and "pathological liar" just trying to muddy the waters with the truth. You shouldn't listen to apostates, even when they quote the WT.

I'd also like to make some about another expert, but I won't mention her name although you'll figure out I am talking about. She was really upset about something that I wrote to you about her. I later apologized even though what I said was true. I asked another question concerning Rando's position or reply and she said she don't read any other boards including you or rando's. Well I read her posts when they're not too long winded or propagandizing stories about jws. It seems she reads your board to me, but I could be wrong. I also read where she stated the jws should be mild tempered or slow to anger and courteous in their response or something to that affect. This is something I don't see too much of on this site or in my encounters with my co-workers. They are usually quick to lose their cool and it's hard to have a dialogue when they pick and choose what questions they want to answer. I see a lot of that on this  board too.

Don't you also find it hypocritical that they're doing the same things to you that they cry about people doing to them, except they call it persecution. Why do they like to attack your religion then claim that people "hate jws because of what they believe"

I also liked when Eddie said he liked the fact that I had the old WTs then in the next breath said I probably visited a site like jwfacts to get my info. DUh. What jw do you think is going to teach that they used to worship Jesus? Yes I do go to that site among others because they use the WTs own words against them. What do you think I'm doing on this apostate site? Learning about the jws so I can hopefully save some souls.(that one was for you Rando, hope to read my name in the near future). Oh ,and Rando you might want to update you're profile to give actual information about yourself and not your nonsensical religious propaganda. It didn't work for Hitler or Stalin or the current loony in N.Korea and it's not working for you! Maybe that's why nobody is asking him questions.

Regarding the supposed psych. student talking about abuse, laughable. I too took a lot of psych. classes in a real college. My favorite was social psychology. How people think, why they think things, and how to control behavior. I'm sure you're aware of the experiments such as Pavlov's dog. Interesting case study on conditioning. Now I see why I'm so fascinated about the watchtower. The lab rats, or sheep in this case are being conditioned to react without thinking. I also enjoyed the subject of compliance. How to get people to comply with you without them even knowing it. The WT is quite familiar with these tactics as I see them utilized quite often. Fear is also good at keeping people in compliance.


One final thought, what kind of jw comes to this site to learn about their religion?

Sorry I rambled on a bit, but I had a few things that needed to be said.

Thanks Kevin.

Answer
Good evening, Kevin.  Good to hear from you.  How are things going?

Yes, I think I'm "pulling through", after all the lies and attacks....lol.  In fact, their lies don't bother me in the least.  I mean, it bothers me that people lie and all, but their lies don't do me any damage.  In fact, their lies are always a sure sign they are being shown up, and the lies always increase with the amount of embarrassment they are feeling.  And right now, that embarrassment is rather high, what with Rando being exposed as hiding out on the Baptist forum, and with Eddie being shown up for not knowing what he's talking about (on either our beliefs, or even his own) again.

Well, I give him just a little bit of credit for retracting his extremely inaccurate comments about his own religion's history.  I say a "little bit", because of a couple of factors.  This isn't the first time he's blundered it, in regards to a question of his own history.  The last time was just a few months back, on the topic of 1874.  He literally spent hours typing a bunch of nonsense in defense of Rando's lies, and then basically had to come back and say "Ooops!  Sorry..." .  

In fact, in that 1874 embarrassment, he even congratulated me in Private, and said that I had "gotten him" on that one.

And then, telling you that Jesus wasn't worshipped in previous WT teachings, only to later have to admit that He was.  The fact is, the ONLY reason he retracted, was because you and Richard both gave quotes right from his own literature, which left him no other choice.  

Truth is, he should have researched the answer to begin with, and given you the truth, instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug as "apostate lies".  

That's the thing with these people....They think they can avoid ANYTHING embarrassing, by just attributing it to "apostates".  If they can put the "apostate" label on it, then they somehow think they don't have to actually deal with the issue, but can just attack the character of the person saying it.

What you're telling me about your JW co-worker, is exactly what we see here.  They are simply trained somehow, to accept whatever is taught as current "truth", but if that current "truth" becomes old light tomorrow and something new is advanced, then what has been "truth" for years, is no longer true, and what wasn't "truth" yesterday, now becomes "truth".  Its actually quite amazing how it works.

And as we have just seen....Anything that was former "truth" but is no longer "truth", if it is brought up, is simply the "work of apostates".  That way, we don't really have to deal with it in our minds, and we can just cast it aside as hardly worth mentioning.  

It is thinking like this, that caused DW (hate to mention him now that he's gone, except that I don't think he is), to make one of the most colossal, all-time blunders, in the history of this board, by stating....

"Now here's the truth...Every Bible teaching by the Slave is the correct one, until the time they tell you otherwise"

Yes, that's really what he said.  Now later, he tried to change it, but he never would reply to my question of WHO we should follow, if we find a statement of the Slave, to be in conflict with a statement in the Bible.  And there is a reason he would not answer that....Because he believes what his original comment stated....That every current teaching is to be viewed as the CORRECT ONE, until the Slave tells you otherwise.  And when they tell you otherwise, you're supposed to do an about-face.  

And if someone brings up the former teaching, well, they're just an "apostate", or have been reading after "apostates".

You saw Eddie use that very same argument, and it is really quite a ridiculous one.

Like you stated, Kevin...."So you see, even when confronted with evidence that comes from a creditable source, he still refuses to accept the truth."

Just like in the statement made by DW....The "truth" is not what you or I show them from their own literature.  The "truth" is whatever the Slave currently SAYS it is.  That may change tomorrow, and what is "true" today, may not be "true" then.

That is why trying to talk sense to your co-worker is so difficult.  You might as well be talking to a brick wall.  He is conditioned, and his thinking capacity is being controlled.  

Just like you saw with Eddie....First, he says your claims have "no merit", because they come from apostates.  But when it was proven to him, well, "you must be reading after apostates, to even have this information".  Doesn't that tell you right there, that Eddie himself would NEVER have given you those facts on his own?  Isn't that what he just admitted to you?  That you only knew about this, because of reading "apostate" sites?  

In other words, in his altered thinking pattern/capacity, the issue is "apostates"....not whether the information is factual or valid.  The truthfulness of the facts presented, pales in comparison in importance, to the fact you have been in contact with "apostates".  

And how many times do we see that pattern reveal itself here?  Every single week, and almost daily.


You said..." I can't imagine how he's going to take the news about the WT and worshipping Jesus. Probably the head in the sand approach since I'm an apostate and "pathological liar" just trying to muddy the waters with the truth. You shouldn't listen to apostates, even when they quote the WT."

Exactly.  And like you said, he will probably react with what he is trained to do in such a circumstance....Head in the sand.  Deny it and attribute it to "apostates".  But if found to be true, then he will chastise you for getting facts from "apostates".  The nerve of you, Kevin!  If there is a fact you need to know, they will tell you.  If they hide it from you, then its of no real importance...hardly worth mentioning!

But never talk to "apostates".  As amazing as it sounds to a normal thinking person such as yourself, that really is their mentality.


You asked...."Don't you also find it hypocritical that they're doing the same things to you that they cry about people doing to them, except they call it persecution. Why do they like to attack your religion then claim that people "hate jws because of what they believe"

Sure its hypocritical.  But they're hypocrites.  Yes, they attack me, and then lie and claim I am doing the attacking.  The way to shut them up on that, is to simply point out that my so-called "attacks" are merely answers to their attacks and their lies, and ask them to provide one instance where I just decided to attack them.  You never get an answer to that, because there is none.  

If they want to keep making fools of themselves, let them.  The fact is, they're dishonest people....all 3 of them.  They write each other and themselves under fake aliases, and Rando even writes to people using the name "Linda", and then lies and claims that its me.  Now, how would Rando know that Linda isn't really Linda, unless he is Linda?  Never mind the fact that she talks just like him....

People see it constantly, but they are completely clueless.  Did you see where Chris asked Eddie about why they write each other and themselves under fake names?  Eddie couldn't even deny it, or answer it....He just made the answer about me.  What a joke.

As for the Greek word for worship, let me give you a fact that people like Eddie and Rando don't like to talk about.


The current rendering of Hebrews 1:6 in the NWT, says....


"But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ďAnd let all of Godís angels do obeisance to him.Ē


However, I am in possession of a 1970 edition of the NWT, and it reads just a bit differently.

In the older version I have, it says....


"But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says:  "And let all God's angels worship him"


Now, we have just seen that their doctrine changed.  But isn't it sad that the Bible was changed, to fit their doctrine?  I thought it was supposed to work the other way around....We change our doctrine to fit the Bible, not the Bible to fit our doctrine.  

When your doctrine evolves, and your Bible has to evolve to keep up with it, then we have a group of men that simply think too highly of their own beliefs, and not enough of God's written revelation.  "Well, we are now going to teach this, so let's change the wording of the verse to support it" , so to speak.

The issue of Jesus being worshipped (which He certainly was), is quite big. If Jesus should NOT be worshipped, then that means that the WT promoted idolatry for all those years.  You would think Jehovah would have corrected something like idolatry just a bit more quickly, since that is one of the things that He frowns upon the most.  But if Jesus IS to be worshipped, then the WT is not giving Him His just due.  Neither scenario is a good one.



You said...."I'd also like to make some about another expert, but I won't mention her name although you'll figure out I am talking about. She was really upset about something that I wrote to you about her. I later apologized even though what I said was true. I asked another question concerning Rando's position or reply and she said she don't read any other boards including you or rando's. Well I read her posts when they're not too long winded or propagandizing stories about jws. It seems she reads your board to me, but I could be wrong."

Hmm...Wonder who you could be talking about here?  :D

It seems vaguely familiar that I might have read something she got upset about, in regards to your writing to me....like that's any of her business.  But I really can't recall the subject, and if you have it, I would like to read it again.

As for reading my board, its sort of funny....She says she doesn't, but she sure does feel free to say I'm "lying" and "misrepresenting" them, which I am not.  But she says it like a broken record.  Funny though, she never makes a "peep" when her friends lie and misrepresent.  Sometimes these people are so vocal, and other times, the FBI couldn't locate them.

For someone who doesn't read my board, she sure has referenced a lot of things that I have said....normally twisting or out of context, but she knows they exist, nonetheless.

Yeah, she reads it.  And as far as Rando's board, I'd say she does.  

You know the really disgusting part about that?  This woman has defended that despicable excuse of a human being, and been a friend to him, because she's gullible enough to trust him.  And he has taken advantage of her trust, even using an alias "Linda" and harassing her, and then telling her it is me.  Of all the wicked, low down things to do, but that is how he treats his own friend.  Anything for his own advantage...that is Rando's game.  He gave himself away on that, several weeks back.


You said...."I also read where she stated the jws should be mild tempered or slow to anger and courteous in their response or something to that affect."

Wow, really?  I must've missed that one.  I'm glad she thinks that's how they're SUPPOSED to act.  She normally takes up for the liars.  It would be nice if she would appeal to them, to act like how they're taught at the KH to act.


You said...."What do you think I'm doing on this apostate site? Learning about the jws so I can hopefully save some souls.(that one was for you Rando, hope to read my name in the near future). Oh ,and Rando you might want to update you're profile to give actual information about yourself and not your nonsensical religious propaganda. It didn't work for Hitler or Stalin or the current loony in N.Korea and it's not working for you! Maybe that's why nobody is asking him questions."

Yeah, Rando will probably use your name in the near future.  Likely accusing you of being me.  That's his favorite game, and he has played it for years.  I normally do not like to play games that I lose at, but Rando seems to.  

Funny, when I send Rando a question on my phone from my work place, it shows up as from "Illinios".  When I'm at home at my computer, it shows from "NC".  Now Kevin, your questions normally show up as from "Illinois", as well.  I was just laughing at the thought of your writing to him, and it showing up from "Illinois", and him just being so sure that it is me....LOL.  It would probably make the poor guy have a nervous breakdown.

But yeah, if you call him out, he will come after you.  If there is one thing Rando doesn't like, its for you to catch him in his lies, and expose him.

But there's something else you might want to keep a close eye on Rando for....Using your name HIMSELF, to pretend to be asking another expert a question.  He has done this several times in his time here, and again recently.  So, if you see your name attached to a question you know you didn't ask....Well, that would be Rando.  Let me know if you see that happen, and we'll let the board know.


You said..."Regarding the supposed psych. student talking about abuse, laughable. I too took a lot of psych. classes in a real college. My favorite was social psychology. How people think, why they think things, and how to control behavior. I'm sure you're aware of the experiments such as Pavlov's dog. Interesting case study on conditioning. Now I see why I'm so fascinated about the watchtower. The lab rats, or sheep in this case are being conditioned to react without thinking."

Yeah, that one was classic.  That was one of the most enjoyable things I have ever responded to, in all my years here.  Danny the psychiatrist, making a diagnosis, but failing to provide any real examples of anything.  All we got was an "In my opinion, this describes Derrick Holland to a tee" .  

Some of these people would be a real psychiatric study themselves.  Can you imagine what a qualified professional in this field, could tell us about Rando's behavior?  WOW!  

I was most disappointed, because I really wanted to read about some more traits of my "abuse".  I showed that to my wife, and now I wish I hadn't....She rags me about it all the time, and calls me her "favorite abuser".  Its become a joke around here...lol.  We actually went through the lists, and picked out the parts that we thought fit the other one.  Had a good time with that.

Anyway, it is regrettable, but Danny seems to have gone pretty much silent.

Oh well.

As for your final thought, that is a good question....What kind of JW does come here to learn?  They will say that they are here, against the advice of their own religion, in order to combat people like me and help non-Witnesses to learn "the truth".  And you know what, I have no problem with that.  I have no issue with someone disagreeing with me.  I have no problem with them responding to, or addressing my posts.  What I do have a problem with, is them lying about what I said, and distorting my beliefs, so that they can attack their own straw man.  

Basically...I have a problem with dishonesty, not disagreement.

Well, this has gotten long, so I'm going to quit now and go eat some supper.  Kevin, its great to hear from you, and take care.  Keep in touch!

God bless you and your family.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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