Jehovah`s Witness/Hebrews chaper one
Hello again Derrick. One more quick thought or two.
I was reading the question from the other Kevin about John chapter 17 negating the Trinity. I haven't read his follow up to your request. Seems like an insincere attempt on his part to portray himself as a Trinitarian whose beliefs were able to be changed so easily simply by reading one chapter of John. I don't think masquerading as someone you are not is what the bible teaches, but I could be wrong.
I also read your suggestion that he read Hebrews chapter one and see how Jesus could be a created angel. I also posed this question to jw 'a' and he actually showed me some verses this time. After a lengthy discussion he could only try to point out that Jesus must be an angel. Again which verse shows that He was created? Well he said, show me where the angels were created? Hmmm how about when Jesus said that all things were created with his own hands? I said does the bible mention that cats were created specifically? He said no. And you believe cats exist? He said yes. And you know all things were created through Jesus? Yes, he replied. And you still don't understand what 'all things' mean?
I then went through the entire chapter one of Hebrews with him. When we got to verse ten I asked him who they were talking about? He said he didn't know. REALLY YOU DONT KNOW? With a straight face he said he didn't know. Now I don't believe that he didn't know and that just goes to show how they can justify their lies to support the organization. Because if he really didn't know he has no right preaching the good news of the Kingdom.
I find it ironic when he calls himself an ordained minister when he hasn't read the whole bible, only listened to and read the entire scriptures. I also find it offensive that he can preach about the bible without knowing simple things like Jonah not being in the belly of the whale or that he didn't recall Jesus ever using the expression "In my name".
Thought I'd share these experiences before I forgot.
Thanks again, Kevin.
Hey, Kevin. Thanks for writing with your observations.
You know, that was a funny thing with the "other Kevin"....I haven't received a follow up yet. I really don't know what to make of it, and I certainly don't want to assume anything. Yes, I did think it was a bit strange, the nature of the question...Writing as Kevin, and mentioning a JW co-worker, as that is how you normally write, as well. But until a person gives me reason to believe otherwise, I have to give the benefit of the doubt, and assume they are sincere. That is why I offered to help with any problem he was having about John 17, and simply asked him for a follow up, to be more specific about which passage in the chapter was giving him difficulty.
Well, no follow up, as of yet.
One more thing that only adds to my initial suspicion about it being someone who was not being sincere, was this post to Rando, apparently from the same person.
Same typical nonsense, and twisting of the facts, that you see from the JWs here.
Also, the reply that I sent to him, is not showing in my account, as having been read yet. Yes, we can see if an answer has been read. And this one is still showing as not read, so perhaps he just hasn't had a chance to read my reply, and send the follow up. I guess we will see.
But as I said, I try to give a person the benefit of the doubt, as being a sincere questioner, until they give me good reason to think otherwise. And I don't even have a problem with a person who disagrees with me, sending a question, provided they are honest and respectful. But if they want to play Rando's childish and immature games, then I'm not really interested in wasting time with them.
But you're correct....IF this person is in fact masquerading as holding to a belief that they actually do not, then that is the same as lying. And true Christians don't do that. Not saying this person is doing that. I'm just saying, "IF"....
Yeah, Hebrews chapter 1 is a pretty hot potato for JWs to try and handle, if they want to maintain that Jesus is an angel. I have found it most useful in refuting that notion. I mean, there are at least 2 rhetorical questions, and also several contrasts, which OBVIOUSLY are designed to show that Jesus is separate and distinct from the angels, rather than being one Himself.
After being TOLD EXPLICITLTY that Christ, by nature, is SO MUCH BETTER than the angels, (v. 4- "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."
), we are then asked 2 rhetorical questions...
Heb. 1:5- "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Heb. 1:13- "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
Now, the obvious implied answer to these questions, is "NONE OF THEM"
. Of course, the JW position would force them to answer..."That's easy...Michael, of course"
Aside from the rhetorical questions, we also have another CLEAR contrast between Christ, and the angels....
Heb. 1:7-8- "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Now, if that isn't an obvious contrast, then tell me what is. Jesus is clearly shown to be superior to the angels, and is even referred to as "God", in this passage.
Its real tough to read this chapter, and arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is an angel, when the entire chapter seems to continually distinguish Him FROM the angels.
Oh, and there is that little issue of the Father commanding the angels to WORSHIP Jesus, as well.
And he seriously asked you to show him where the angels were created? Unbelievable!
Nehemiah 9:6- "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee."
Ask him what he thinks the "host of heaven", is. Even his own "bible" says in the same verse....
"“You alone are Jehovah; you made the heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens and all their army, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. And you preserve all of them alive, and the army of the heavens are bowing down to you."
Psalm 148:2-5- "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created."
Colossians 1:16- "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Perhaps he just isn't familiar with those passages? Honestly, I've never before heard a JW try to argue that angels aren't said to be created. No offense, but this guy sounds like a nut, and someone who will say anything, if he's put into a corner.
As for the question you asked him about Heb. 1:10, and that he didn't want to answer, I am pretty certain as to why he didn't want to answer it. The implication is clear....The entire chapter has been about showing the superiority of Jesus, to the angels, and He has just been called "God", by the Father Himself, and verse 10 clearly shows Him to be the Creator.
Of course he didn't want to answer that. After all, there is a doctrine that he must keep intact here, and we can't let the Bible mess that up.
Anyway, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with him. Hopefully the light of the Scriptures will break through, and that God can use you to show this man the truth. At some point, he needs to just come to grips with the fact that his theology isn't lining up with the Bible, and stop trying to twist the Scriptures to suit his own agenda.
Take care, Kevin, and have a blessed evening.