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Jehovah`s Witness/Sister T and her tecnicolor dreamcoat.

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Question
Hello Derrick.  I trust everything outside this forum is well.

I'd like to share my experience with Jw"A" about the worship of Jesus in the WT, but first a few comments about T.

She seems bent on calling us liars without any evidence to back up her claims. One of  her original claims was that I said she doesn't read your board. Well she certainly does as we saw her own words say that she doesn't. She sure has a lot to say about my public writings to you even though she doesn't read your posts. Funny, her latest rant didn't address that. Sooo hows bout an apology for "lying on you." She took my comment about how I don't write private questions and blew it up like a mountain out of a mole hill. Let me be clear any question I send to an expert is meant to be public. If it shows up as private that was not my conscious decision. Only a soothe sayer would be able to know my true intentions. She also stated that Jws dont force their beleifs on others. Hardy de har har har. I was reading some of my past questions  to her and read how she showed me Jesus and the Father were not the same person ( not my question). Numerous times about Hell and the Trinity, again not regarding my questions. So just answer the questions you are asked and stop forcing your non Christian beliefs on people. You seemed to imply I was making something up about what the WT wrote about Jesus, asking for proof. After I produced the proof you never really answered all my questions about how and why they worshipped Jesus and now don't. Just that they were victims of an inaccurate translation. Inaccurate according to you btw. She forgot  to comment about how the Wt also said a person should petition  Jesus as well, even though it is not expressly written that one should do so.

Ironic that she would mention mind control tactics that you use. She's not even able to read the truth about the Wt's history without convulsing. Her point about how it's pointless to address this issue is pure denial." You see as a Jw we once worshipped Jesus as  God , but now we don't. What's your problem apostate?"  The identity of God changes and nobody should  take notice or ask why?

Enough about T. since she doesn't read your board so she shouldn't get upset.

Onto JW "A". I approached him about how it is hypocritical for people to say one thing and then later do the opposite. I gave him some real life examples to grease the plate so to speak. Funny how he understood this concept when it didn't relate to the Wt. For example, his jw brother, who also works with me, gave a review of the  Iphone. I had asked him what a good phone was to buy and he thought that with the  Iphone you were paying for the name. HMMM okay. Much to my surprise this person later purchased an Iphone. So Jw"A" agreed about this and and  my other examples. Then I asked if he knew the Wt used to worship Jesus. He said "No, it's not logical." He then went on to dissect the meaning of the word worship and how he "thought" Russell didn't fully understand the meaning of the word worship as in appeared in Greek. No evidence to support his claim. The next day after re-reading the quotes from the Wt I brought up the part about petitioning Jesus. His response was, why not just say pray to make it clear? I offered to show him the quotes so he could see for himself about this and the 1874 teaching, but he said no. Again his claim was that 1914 was the only  teaching about His invisible return. Partly because he seems to think I'm not trustworthy enough to give honest information. I reiterated that he doesn't have to rely on me, that he could cross check the quotes for himself. Again refused to look at evidence against his beliefs. The whole irony in this discussion is that he paraphrased something in the bible that says you shouldn't accept faith or doctrines blindly ,but seek out evidence. I laughed out loud . I literally told him that he refused to see evidence not more than 30 minutes before. He hmmmed and hawed, but didn't offer a rebuttal. Ohh and I pointed out to him how hard it must be to argue about quotes in the Wt that he never read and refused to read for that matter. He said that Charles Russell did not think Jesus was God and he seemed to think he read that somewhere. I don't think he did and asked him to send me one quote saying that and my argument would be defeated. I'm not holding my breathe on that one.

On a bright side he  finally admitted the mistake about 1975 and other dates. This was the first time he used the words predicted and Armageddon together with the same understanding I have.  He said they were wrong to think 6000 yrs since Adam would trigger Armageddon. I praised him for finally coming clean about how this was a prediction and not an expectation. I had to point out to him that he gave me four different answers to my question, "Did the WT ever predict Armageddon?"  First time was no. Second time was there was an expectation. Third time was they were wrong about 6000 yrs. triggering an event. Fouth time was that they made a mistake as they are human ,but were right about 6000 yrs. since Adam. Ohh and the mistake they admitted to about organ transplants being part of the "Abstain from blood" doctrine was human error and did not come from Jehovah, but all current Wt teachings clearly come from Jehovah and can be proved by the bible.  I think I backed him into a corner with the Wt being the FDS and getting their communications from Jehovah. So when the Wt wrote about this event was it a prediction or prophesy? Since prophesy is inspired from God, he really didn't have a choice to tell the truth. I see a lot about Jws aren't forthright about telling the truth voluntarily, until they are confronted with irrefutable evidence. One way to avoid this is to not review the irrefutable evidence from the WT I guess.  I mentioned that other Jws agreed about my statements regarding the Wt writings and why wasn't he in unity with them? I guess he really is after all, they both refuse to accept the truth or evidence from 'apostates'.

One more interesting point about Jw "A" is that he said that it's not only possible, but probable that Jesus would know of Armageddon beforehand. Maybe hours or even months before. His argument was that "only the Father knows...." was true at the time He said it. So if Jesus knows now that it wouldn't contradict the bible.    

To sum this up I see a lot of common traits regarding Jws in my work and here. They all are in denial and unable to be reasoned with using common sense.

Thanks Derrick.  Kevin

Answer
Good evening, Kevin.  I trust you are doing well.

Did you want me to change this question to "Public"?  LOL!!  Just kidding!!!!  Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

As for Ms. T's latest false accusations, those have been dealt with in some more detail, in a post that will appear tomorrow alongside this one.  You know, the facts obviously proved her wrong...You would think she would have just let it go, and admitted her error.  But when someone adopts the mindset that only THEY have "truth", and anyone outside who disagrees with their "truth", is automatically untrustworthy and dishonest, then you have...well, what you see in Ms. T.  But since she tried to continue making us liars, based on her false accusations, she once again had to be addressed.  The more she writes, the worse she is making it on herself.  

Everything you said about her, was right on....She DOES owe us an apology, and she DOES impose her beliefs on questions that had nothing to do with those particular beliefs.  I have seen it time and time again, and not just in her answers to you.  But fine, she signed up here to talk about what she believes, even though she SHOULD be answering what was asked...Okay, I get that.  But regardless, your observation was correct.


Hey Man, I believe you when you say you didn't intend for those questions back in September, to be Private.  I knew then, just by the nature of what you were saying you wanted to share with the JW community, that something must be wrong....That either the system was acting up (which it has done on occasion), or that you had just checked the box by mistake.  I am truly sorry that she is so desperate for SOMETHING to make you a liar, than she had to grasp for this.  That woman is in serious need of Jesus Christ.  She obviously is not at peace.

You said this, and it bears repeating....

"Ironic that she would mention mind control tactics that you use. She's not even able to read the truth about the Wt's history without convulsing. Her point about how it's pointless to address this issue is pure denial." You see as a Jw we once worshipped Jesus as  God , but now we don't. What's your problem apostate?"

Yep, spot on!  You know, I have just learned to find the humorous aspect of her posts.  And I really hate to say that, but its true.  When she talks about "mind control", while herself exhibiting so many signs of it, or when she talks about me being "obsessed" while her very own friends think enough of me to write fake questions under my name, and slander my wife, just to get a reaction from me...Well, I'd say that's more than an "obsession".  When they fabricate phony questions to themselves just to bash me (Eddie G/Garcia/Goody and Rando Barns), then I'd call that more than an "obsession".  

When she talks about how "Jehovah's Witnesses don't have to stoop to lying", and then being silent when they do, or taking part in it herself, well, what else can you do besides just shake your head at the hypocrisy of it?

But anyway, she is wrong about the Private Question issue, and everyone knows it.  Let her keep on if she wants to.  Its only making her look bad, not us.


As for your experiences with "JW A", I want to ask you a question...Isn't it odd that these people have some of the very SAME tendencies and warped thought processes, even when they don't know each other?  Again, I know there are SOME who seem honest and rational, even some here.  But those are the exception, not the rule.  But I mean, what you said about refusing to look at any facts that would prove the delusional belief wrong.  And this thing of attributing every single embarrassing fact, to "apostates".  Was it the apostates that actually were running the Society when it was taught that Jesus was worthy of worship, or are the "apostates" just making the fact of the matter known?  I think its obvious.

You said...."The whole irony in this discussion is that he paraphrased something in the bible that says you shouldn't accept faith or doctrines blindly ,but seek out evidence. I laughed out loud . I literally told him that he refused to see evidence not more than 30 minutes before. He hmmmed and hawed, but didn't offer a rebuttal."

Yeah, that's another aspect of this worth mentioning.  This is what I have been pointing out to Ms T....The double-standard.  Only YOU are supposed to do research into your own religion, and see if its teaching you the truth.  Only YOU are supposed to "seek out evidence", and not blindly accept what you're told.  But just try getting them to do that.  

You have to understand the mindset, and I think any readers who might not be familiar with this group, should understand this.  They think in their minds, that YOU have nothing to offer them, by way of truth.  They already HAVE the truth.  You are the one in error....Because the WT says so.  Any teaching that is to be done, is to be done by them.  Any learning that is to be done, is to be done by you.  Any research into beliefs, is to be done by you....But ONLY before you become a JW.  Once you do that, no more research is necessary, or even advised.

They do not hold themselves to the same standard that you are held to.

Case in point, regarding honesty.  Now, I'm going to use this reply to you, to address this.  We have seen that Rando has joined the Baptist forum, under the name of "Jay Barns".  Well, under "Barns"' profile this morning in the Baptist forum, there was a Question to him that appeared there, and was answered by Barns.  Now, this "question" was quite telling.

Do you mind if I deviate from the topic, to just address it here?  It shows the complete DISHONESTY which these people operate under, but if you or me did the same thing, then we would be the biggest liars on the planet.  In fact, you and I are "liars", because we said you did not mean for a question to be sent as Private, or 2 questions, or whatever.  We're bald-faced liars, just for that.  

But I am quite certain that Ms. T has NO problem at all with her brethren planting questions in the Question Pool there, with my name fraudulently attached to them. I have seen nothing from her, telling her JW friends that using my wife's name, was dishonest and unchristian.  When they're lying, the FBI couldn't find Ms. T.

But back to that question in the Baptist forum, because I want to show you how THEY operate, when they want to slander someone.  In that "question" to Barns, they made reference to the writing to Eddie, that supposedly came from "Chris", where 2 foul words were used.  The one "a" word was objectionable, in that it was inappropriate for the public forum, but the other word was downright vulgar.  And if Eddie had any class at all, he would have rejected the question and asked the person to re-submit it after the bad language was removed.  

And that is ASSUMING that Chris even wrote the question, which is NOT a given, considering that there is no low that these people will not stoop to....

But here is what was said in the Baptist forum, due to their OBSESSION to discredit me.  Read and enjoy....

"I wanted to show you a question on the JW Forum that was from one of Pastor Holland's disciples. It's obvious that Pastor Holland condones this behavior since he allows it to go on.

And the quote "I wish y would stop showing everyone how f...ing stupid you are. You do it over and over. I was laughing my a.. off from Hollands last post exposing you yet again."  http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2015/2/sad-ed.htm

Since Derrick Holland is a Baptist Pastor and has his own church under the Baptists Umbrella, cant this activity of "cursing" and "harassing" be deemed unscriptual?"


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/2015/2/question-15.htm


Now, I want to show you how despicable these people are.  BTW, I omitted some of the letters in the vulgar words, because I have a policy that I am not going to let that type of language post under my profile.  I rejected 2 sexually explicit messages just weeks ago, and Eddie should have shown more class than to have let those words post under his profile, in this forum.  

But notice...The questioner claims that Chris is my "disciple".  In fact, this Chris person to my knowledge, has never even written to me.  They simply said they enjoyed watching me make a fool of Eddie, along with some other choice words.  Now, let me say this....If the message from Chris had not contained the graphic language, it WOULD have been a good post.  What he said, was true....Eddie was caught, and was made to look stupid.  No doubt about it.  And its also true that Eddie writes to himself, and pretends its other people...That was proven beyond all doubt.

So, Chris' post was true.  But the 2 words used IN the post, were VERY inappropriate, and should not have been included.  But they try to say that Chris is my "disciple", in order to make me responsible for the profane language.  Well, I don't have any disciples, nor do I condone foul language from anyone.  I don't use those words, and I don't think anyone else should, either.

But because Chris enjoyed seeing Eddie exposed for his lying, and rightly stated that Eddie was exposed for deceit, then he's automatically accused by these people of being my "disciple", and I'm supposedly his "pastor".

First off, I'm NOT a Pastor, as I've said about 50 times now.  They cannot get ANYTHING correct...nothing.  My profile there, clearly says I WAS a pastor, but that I'm now an ordained minister.  Besides that, I've spoken of MY PASTOR numerous times on this forum.  But hey, "if we need to lie, then let's make up a whopper"....that's their philosophy.

Now, notice this one....

"It's obvious that Pastor Holland condones this behavior since he allows it to go on."

Its obvious that I condone this behavior and "allow it to go on"?  Now, why would that be obvious, considering that the writing with the bad language only posted YESTERDAY (Saturday) morning, and this writing to the forum saying I "obviously condone it", posted TODAY (Sunday)?  Exactly when did I have time to address it, or denounce it?  It posts one day, and the very next day, its saying that I "obviously condone it"?

I can't control what somebody else writes.  I can only deal with it, when it happens.  But the desperation to use anything to discredit me, is quite dishonest and unchristian, don't you think Kevin?

But how can I deal with something that appears one day, and by the NEXT day, they're claiming I "obviously condone it because I'm allowing it".  These people are nut cases.

See what I mean?  Now, try getting Ms. T to say that this activity on the part of her friends, is shameful.  She won't do it, I guarantee you.

Then, the lying JW asks "Barns"...."Since Derrick Holland is a Baptist Pastor and has his own church under the Baptists Umbrella, cant this activity of "cursing" and "harassing" be deemed unscriptual?"

Well, of course its unscriptural.  Is that even under debate?

Ephesians 4:29-31-  "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice"

But here's the kicker, Kevin....How do we even know that Chris sent that?  I mean, we have Rando sending questions under my name, and my wife's name...So, why not under Chris's name? We have Rando using the name "Linda", and even harassing Ms. T under that name, and writing me filthy and perverted garbage under that name, and then claiming its me.  How would Rando know who it was, unless.......?

And who is the person who has been talking so much about "vile language" here lately?  Yep, Rando.

But try and get Ms. T to denounce that behavior.  But hey, you and me are liars, if we state that you sent 1 or 2 questions marked Private, by mistake.


You're correct, Kevin...There are some VERY common traits that you will see in the way they think, and operate.  Even among ones who don't even know each other.  

What does that tell you?

Well anyway, thank you for writing and sharing the experiences with your co-worker.  Keep them coming...They always validate the very same behavior that we see here, as well.

Take care, Kevin, and have a great evening.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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