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Jehovah`s Witness/Encounters with my two jw coworkers

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Hello once again my friend.

I'd like to share some of my experiences with my jw coworkers. The first one is with the jw I consider to be more rational. After asking two experts on this board their thoughts on the WT teachings about worshiping Jesus and getting a denial at first, I asked jw 'A' about his thoughts. He denied this and refused to do any research on this matter. Then one day I had a chance to ask jw 'B' this same question and he freely admitted this to be the case, but said "so what, we used to smoke and celebrate Christmas too". I then asked his thoughts about the WT and his opinions about if everything in it is true. First a little backstory. He had previously stated that when talking about 1874 and the numerous failed prophecies regarding Armageddon that they were imperfect humans and prone to mistakes. I asked him again about the authority of the WT and this time he implied that it is all accurate. Really? I asked if he believed that Jehovah was using his organization to communicate His will to the world? He agreed. So then you think Jehovah is inspiring the writers of the watchtower on what they write? He said yes. Then I asked if he thought the WT is inspired? He thought about it and said he believed so. I asked him if we both had the same understanding of the word inspired? He did and said that Jehovah was indeed inspiring the writers the same way He did with the Bible. He said that was only his personal opinion though. Hmmm, tells me a lot about his thought process and lack of critical thinking I hear so much about.

The other story relates to jw 'A' who is more irrational and illogical.

I asked him what his thoughts were about how you should honor the Son as you honor the Father. He said that makes no sense, because that would make Jesus equal to the Father. The next day I showed him the verse and he did a 180. He said he thought I was saying worship instead.

On another occasion I asked for his thoughts concerning Jesus' statements about "In my name". Again he had no recollection of these verses. When I showed him his memory came back and said he had forgotten at the time. His story now is that he corrected himself right away. I asked him later about Jesus saying If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it". Once again he denied this verse existed and said I was probably thinking of "If you ask my Father anything in my name....." I thought I remembered it right and sure enough I found the verse for him. He pointed out that the word 'me' wasn't in the verse and showed me some of the verses. Well I know that there were more translations than not that included 'me'. I looked in the interlinear and saw the word 'me' and 'myself' were in the Greek. I asked him to check his interlinear to see if they appeared. That was a few weeks ago and today I remembered to ask him. He said the words 'me' and 'myself' were in his interlinear. I asked for an apology for thinking I was making something up, but you can probably guess how that turned out.

I also asked him if he too believed that all jws were in unity regarding the scripture. He said of course. I disagreed and gave just one example about his understanding of the word firstborn in Col. chapter one vs. an expert on this board. He maintained that 'firstborn literally means one thing, the oldest child. When asked to explain "firstborn from the dead" he said that meant Jesus was the first to be resurrected. I already corrected him on this before stating that Jesus was NOT the first one to be resurrected. Then he changes his answer to be that Jesus was the first to be resurrected to heaven. Again how does 'firstborn' in this context mean oldest? He goes on about some kind of symbolic meaning....  he does understand how other words in the bible can have two meanings, like worship. I'm finding it difficult to reach these lost souls, but I feel compelled to continue in my efforts.

Thanks for listening, had to get this off my chest and help any readers that might be considering 'free Bible' studies.


Take care  and God bless.  Kevin.

Answer
Good evening, Kevin.  It is great to hear from you again, and I hope you and yours are doing well.

Man, I apologize for taking 4 days to get you a reply.  This has been one more week-end.  I had a birthday on Friday, so was busy for that.  Then, on Saturday, my wife decided that a great birthday present for a 46 year old man, was to plan a family hike, which included climbing the most rugged mountain in eastern America (about 45 min. from my house, incidentally), from which my legs are still killing me.  And then yesterday was Father's Day.  So, I am just now getting a free moment.

In reading your recent encounter with your JW co-workers, I find it amazing that the guy who told you that the WT was "inspired", is the "RATIONAL" one.  If he believes that, then I would imagine that the irrational one, must be a bit frustrating to reason with.  

I want to make a comment about that.  In fairness, I think MOST JWs would say that the WT is not inspired, the way the Bible is.  However, I too, have met some who DO say it is.  Those are the ones who leave you scratching your head, at how they can say that with a straight face....given all of the changes that the WT has had to undergo, especially in areas of doctrine.  No way God was inspiring that.  

And it would not surprise me in the least, if there were not many JWs who read this board, who also believe that the WT is inspired.  The guy who writes occasionally to harass me, once told me that it was inspired of God.  Unbelievable.

I would personally like to see their Scriptural evidence of that.  I mean, I read clearly where God inspired, and preserved, the Scriptures.  I read where THEY are profitable for doctrine, correction, rebuke, and exhortation.  But I read nowhere, that there would be another magazine that would come along in the 19th century, that would also bear the mark of inspiration.  

It seems his "they were imperfect humans and prone to mistakes" comment, is in complete contrast to his later assertion that they were inspired, just like the Bible writers.

What I would hate to be the one to tell him, is that ALL humans who have ever written down ANYTHING, were "imperfect humans and prone to mistakes".  That simply isn't the point.  Even the BIBLE writers were "imperfect humans and prone to mistakes", as far as their everyday lives went.  HOWEVER....When it comes to the Scriptures, they were inspired and led of the Spirit of God what to record, and when God puts His power and presence on it, then it will be perfect.  

The same with Old Testament prophets....They were imperfect people in their everyday lives.  But when they spoke for Jehovah God, and claimed that their utterance was from Him, then they HAD to be perfect in that utterance, and no error was allowed.  If there was error, then you would know it didn't come from God.

So, if the WT was truly inspired of God, then it would by necessity, be error-free.  It isn't.

Of course, neither is much of what passes for "Christian" material in your average bookstore, either.  So, I want to be fair.  The difference is, nobody is forcing me to accept that, without question, as JWs are to do with what is written in the pages of the Watchtower.


You wrote...."I asked him what his thoughts were about how you should honor the Son as you honor the Father. He said that makes no sense, because that would make Jesus equal to the Father. The next day I showed him the verse and he did a 180. He said he thought I was saying worship instead."

I was amused by this one.  It sounds like he came to the LOGIAL conclusion, until you showed him the Bible actually did say it.  Of course honoring the Son just as you honor the Father, would denote an equality.  That is simply the logical conclusion to come to.  

But naturally, when you showed him the Bible actually states this, he would change his story.  That is what is known as "adjusting the Bible to fit an already-decided-on doctrine", rather than adjusting his viewpoint to be in harmony with the Bible.

Yet, there it is, nonetheless....

John 5:23-  "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

Not only does it say that we are to honor the Son, EVEN AS we honor the Father, but it goes on to say that if we DO NOT do this, we are not honoring the Father, either.  


In regards to your point about Jesus inviting us to ask Him anything in His name, and his saying that the word "me" isn't there....Even if a version does not include the word "me", that is irrelevant, because "me" is implied by the very fact that Jesus is the ONE "DOING IT".  He clearly says "I will do it" .  Normally, you ask the person whom you want to do something, if that person is available to ask.  So, his argument there, won't hold water either, because the word "me" is implied by the very context.


And he will turn right around and defend adding "other" to Colossians chapter 1, where it is not implied in the least....a bit inconsistent, in my opinion.


You wrote....</b>" I asked for an apology for thinking I was making something up, but you can probably guess how that turned out."</b>

Let me see if I can guess....no apology, or admission of wrongdoing?  Figures....Been there, and done that.


The fact is, Colossians 1:15-17, does not mean that Jesus was "first-created".  In fact, there is no way it could, because that would make the text self-contradictory, as the entire context is actually CONTRASTING Jesus with the creation, and showing Him to be the Creator of it.  And this is in harmony with John 1:3, which states....

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."


Yes, Brother, it can be difficult to reach them.  Just keep giving them the truth of God's Word, and pray that the Holy Spirit will take it, and pierce through the deception, and bring them to a saving knowledge of Him.  Our job is to plant the seed.  It is up to the Holy Spirit, to bring it to fruition.

Sometimes, they deny the obvious meaning that is right there in front of them, just to save face.  Trust me, I have heard some of the most ridiculous things come from them, when they are in a corner, and they know it.  I remember one time my JW aunt was arguing with me about being born again, and she told me that not everyone had to be born again, and that it was for only the 144.000.  She said it wasn't for us.  I pointed out to her, in my KJB, that Jesus Himself said "YE must be born again", not just 144,000, and that if He said it, then it must mean we need to be..  

Know what her reply was?  Seriously, you won't believe it, but its a fact.  She said...."It says YE, not YOU".  

Well, I knew that conversation was over.  But the point was made....Sometimes, when their doctrine is knocked out from under their feet, they will try to save face, although they themselves see the embarrassing problem in front of them.  I think that is probably what your co-workers are doing, as well.  They can't explain what you're asking them, but they can't bring themselves to admit it, either.  Make no mistake...They probably know it deep down, and find it embarrassing.  So, you never know just how much good you may have done.

Just keep at it, and God bless you and your efforts.  Again, I apologize for the delay in answering you.  Take care, and God bless you and yours.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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