AboutBrenda Martin Expertise I have been one of Jehovah`s Witneses now for over 30 years, in those years I have brought up 4 children, teaching each of them the bible.Being one of Jehovah`s Witnesses has helped me cope with my Epilepsy and bring up a daughter with learning difficulties.I have conducted bible studies with people from nearly every denomination i.e. Muslim. Having used the bible all these years to answer peoples questions, I feel I am qualified to give any answer regarding Jehovah`s Witnesses and the bible.
Experience My experience has been one of attending bible lectures 5 times a week,taking part in these lectures in front of an audience and being with thousands of J.W. at conventions where I have seen the bible at work in peoples lives.It is truly a miracle when you see thousands of people meeting together and not one policeman needed, and not even a piece of litter in sight.It is like another world.
Question First of all, thanks for your prompt response. Before I proceed I want us to understand that this is not a debate it is a request for clarification. I still see some areas of concern. Can you please define: everlasting, time indefinitely and eternal? If I say FROM time indefinitely, can you mark a beginning? In reference to your response yes I agree with you, Christ is The Beginning of all Creation but how we differ is the interpretation.(From time indefinitely I was installed): As the Word implies (Q-installed for what purpose?)Ans. Col 1:16...All things have been created THROUGH him and for him. Q-Can I properly say Installed in place for the creation of all things THROUGH him and for him? Bought forth in labor pains. Bought forth from where? As the word implies: FROM Time Indefinitely. As in labor in pains: John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.
Q- Did the Father create another master worker? Or did he allow the Son (The WORD/WISDOM) to come forth from time indefinitely?
Lets keep in mind Col 8:16 [Other] as shown in the NWT. [ ] Brackets enclose words inserted to complete the sense in English text. In The Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament, Byzantine Greek New Testament, Scrivener Textus Receptus, Stephens Textus Receptus, Alexandrian, nor did appeared in the 405 A.D. Latin Vulgate w/ Deuterocanon, the word [Other] was not inserted. If I had missed it then please reveal it. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a certified scholar, but I can do my research. Q-Why not insert other in this verse? Col 1:18...That he might be first in all [Other] things. Don't forget let us look at some of the title. Isaiah 41:4..."I, Jehovah, the First One: and with the Last ones I am the same". Isaiah 44:6...Jehovah of armies, 'I am the First I am the Last, and beside me there is no God. Rev 1:17-18..."Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever ...”. Is the First suppose to be a title shared by both the father and the Son? If you do not believe that it is a title, then my question is: Q-The Father is consider to be the first in what? But we all know that the Father is everlasting. About the Son the Firstborn, bought forth as in labor in pain. Bought forth from where? FROM time indefinitely. In rev 1:17-18 The First and the Last quoted "...I became dead...” I believe that I am not alone in this, the Son became dead and now he is alive forevermore. So the Son can be First in all things. Or would you prefer me to insert all [OTHER] things? In the last couple of versus can you define the FIRST? Does the First have a beginning? You said John 1:1 "The WORD" was with God "In the beginning" So the Word was with Jehovah when "the heavens and the earth" were created. I do agree with you about John 1:1.
In Proverbs 8 The WORD (WISDOM) reveals to us in a very detailed manner that Wisdom was bought forth as in labor in pains FROM time indefinitely. I have too much in mind to write and the space here is limited. Wish this will give you a better understanding and how to answer my question.
Thanks again
V/R Luis
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Followup To
Answer "IF I SAY FROM TIME INDEFINITELY, CAN YOU MARK A BEGINNING? "
TIME INDEFINITE--The Hebrew word `oh•lam´ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746)
Accordingly, expressions such as “time indefinite” (Ps 25:6), “indefinitely lasting” (Hab 3:6), “of old” (Ge 6:4), “a long time ago,” “of long ago” (Jos 24:2; Pr 22:28; 23:10), and “long-lasting” (Ec 12:5) appropriately convey the thought of the original-language term.
The correct understanding of anything in the bible requires that we take ALL scripture into account, when we compare all scriptures speaking of Jesus and his origin we arrive at the correct understanding, that he was created before all other things, so therefore he had a beginning, unlike his Father.
"INSTALLED, CREATION OF ALL THINGS, BOUGHT FORTH IN LABOR PAINS?"
Why does Proverbs 8:24, 25 speak of wisdom as being “brought forth as with labor pains”?
Wisdom is there spoken of as being “brought forth as with labor pains” because the Hebrew text here uses a word that is applied to women at the time of childbirth. This Hebrew word lays special emphasis on the matter of pain, indicating the writhing that a woman does when laboring to bring forth a child.
Thus the New World Translation shows that Wisdom personified, or the only-begotten Son of God, was brought forth as by birth, as when a woman gives birth to a child. (1 Cor. 1:30; Col. 1:13-15) For all the labor that is entailed, a woman is to be given credit for having given birth to a child. She has reason to rejoice thereafter, as Jesus said. (John 16:21) In Hebrew, by using this word in connection with the bringing forth of Wisdom personified, it shows that God is to be given credit for his production of his only-begotten Son, that his first creation is a work on which much divine consideration was expended. Hence Wisdom personified is to be highly appreciated as the Son of God, the “beginning of his way.”
The bible uses many different words to describe Jesus beginning, the end result is the same, Jesus was created first and then used to create all other things.
JOHN 5:26 FOR JUST AS THE FATHER HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF, SO HE HAS GRANTED ALSO TO THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.
Taken in context here is what Jesus meant-- Prior to making this remarkable statement, Jesus said: “Most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life . . . The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.” Here Jesus was referring to an extraordinary power bestowed upon him by the Father—the ability to give humans a fine standing before God. Moreover, Jesus is able to resurrect those sleeping in death and to impart life to them. For Jesus, having “life in himself” means that he is granted these powers. Like the Father, the Son also has “in himself the gift of life.” (John 5:24-26 ;)
DID THE FATHER CREATE ANOTHER MASTER WORKER; THE SON (THE WORD/WISDOM)
We know from examining ALL scripture that there is only ONE “master worker”, Jesus Christ, the beginning of God’s creation, and he is the one discussed also as; ”wisdom” and the “Word”
COL 8:16 -- THE WORD [OTHER] WAS NOT INSERTED.
I presume you mean (1;16) as there is no chap. 8 in col. So I base my answer on that assumption—
The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas.
At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”;
JB reads “any other”;
NE says “anyone else.”
(See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.)
In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.
WHY NOT INSERT OTHER IN THIS VERSE? COL 1:18
Obviously the Greek word “panta” isn’t used in this verse, as Jesus has become “first in all things” not “all other things”
Jesus was the FIRST ever to be resurrected to everlasting life.
He was the FIRST to receive a resurrection “in the spirit,” to life in heaven.
He was the FIRST to be given a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth.
He was the FIRST to be granted immortality and incorruption, which no creature in the flesh can have
He was FIRST to be made “higher than the heavens,” second only to Jehovah God in the universe. (Heb 7:26; 1Ti 6:14-16; Php 2:9-11; Ac 2:34; 1Co 15:27)
ISAIAH 41:4.
Through Isaiah, Jehovah foretells the rise of Cyrus long before that king is born. Only the true God can accurately prophesy such a thing. Jehovah has no equal among the false gods of the nations. With good reason, Jehovah states: “To no one else shall I give my own glory.” Only Jehovah can rightfully say: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”—Isaiah 42:8; 44:6, 7.
ISAIAH 44:6
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.
REV 1:17-18 --THE FATHER IS CONSIDERED TO BE THE FIRST IN WHAT?
In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only ALMIGHTY God, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.” When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God.
In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17)
In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.
