AboutBrenton Hepburn Expertise I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT, the so called mind control problems, so called prophecies, and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses.....
>>>>WARNING<<<<<< ....Please be aware that there are at least ... 3 .... people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs and, (at other times there have been as many as 5.) These ones will, at times, appear to have an agenda against JWs., and will often give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask them a question that is fine, but if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question
Experience I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.
Education/Credentials I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek.
Was a public tax accountant for many yrars untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up.
Question Brenton, I wanted to continue with our previous discussion, but thought I would start afresh, because the postings get so long, it is hard to keep track, and it all sort of runs together. I did want to address the last answer you gave me though. You said Brenton:
[quote]JWs do honor the Son as they honor the father. How do we show honor? By following the commands of Jesus because they come from the father. Showing honor is different from worshiping. Only the Father is to recive “religious” or “sacred” worship. In the Authorised versin there are 7 different greek words that are rendered as worhip in English. Jesus is never assigned any of theses words that mean to worhip him in a “religious” or ”sacred way”. The word used in the case of Jesus simple means to show honour . It literally means “ to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand” (Stongs Greek English Lexicon)
So JWs do rightly show the honor that is due to Jesus just as they rightly show honor to Jehovah but they do not worship him in the way they worship Jehovah
I have to slightly disagree with part of your comment in this quote “The Bible says Satan blinds the eyes of unbelievers so
they cannot see the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [see 2
Corinthians 4:3-6, especially vs 6.]”
You seem to be saying that Satan stops us from seeing the Glory of God. To me the context does not say that. Lets look at the context form the RSV
I found 2 Corinthians 4:1-6 interesting as different Bibles rendered parts of that differently. Most say in verse 4 “the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ” while the Av and the 21 century King James say “the light of the glorious gospel of Christ” (The NWT reads similar to the King James). Both these renderings can give slightly different meanings, however I want to concentrate on the next portion where all Bible that I have read similar “Christ, who is the likeness of God.”
It is this likeness of Christ to God that is interesting and sheds light on the meaning of the verse. The word rendered “likeness” is also rendered “image” which comes form the Greek word eikon meaning “a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:— image.” (Strongs Greek Lexicon). So Jesus is an image or representation of God as such he does display Gods Glory which JWs earnestly believe.[/quote]
OK Brenton, this presents a problem here though, because you said Jesus represents God's Glory. This may be true, but it is much more than that from what I see in Scripture. John 17:5 says that Jesus has shared the Glory of the Father before the world was.
To share in God's glory though is something God said He would never do in Isaiah 48:11.
If Jesus is not in fact God, this would be a glaring contradiction in the Scriptures, BUT if Jesus is in fact God, it makes perfect sense.
God says in Isaiah 48:11 I'll not share my glory with another, and Jesus comes along and says to the Father that He has shared this glory before the world began.
You have to understand Brenton, as Christians we do not believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, but we believe that they are ONE in a deeper way than our finite minds can fathom. The Son shares all the glory of the Father. And the Father commands [all] the angels to worship His Son Jesus, including Michael.
Michael is only "one of the cheif princes"[Daniel 10:13] While Jesus is a Son [by very nature] to God. God's ONLY begotton Son. The Son who God says in Hebrews 1:10 "Thou Lord, in the beginning has laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thine hands." Cross reference this passage with Psalms 102:24-25.
Certainly another contradiction here unless the Son is ONE with the Father.
The Bible calls this a mystery in 1 Timothy 3:16. The NWT renders it a "sacred secret". Jesus has always been One with the Father. Jesus is the Mighty God. The Bible also calls Jehovah "The Mighty God" in Isaiah 10:21. Yet the Bible says to us there is One God.
I agree that Jesus is EXACTLY like the father in every way, and He also is God who shares ALL the Glory with the Father.
I know your religion is called "the truth" Brenton, but for a Christian, Jesus is the Truth [John 14:6] He will not have His authority usurped by an organization or religion. He is the Truth, and He calls us to Himself for eternal life [John 5:39-40]
Answer Greeting Laurie
Thank you for asking for clarification. I appreciate it when people want me to clarify what I have written because often I write in a way that does not always makes complete sense to other people.
May I ask does John 17:5 really say that Jesus shares Gods Glory? The point here I am asking is Jesus SHARING Gods Glory or does he have his own glory.
Isaiah 48 :11 says “and I will not give my glory unto another ” (AV) Rightly so. As the God of all the universe all religious worship and religious honor belongs to him. Can others have glory? notice these examples from the AV
Proverbs 3:35 The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.
Proverbs 17:6 Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.
Isaiah 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Matthew 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these
Luke 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Hebrews 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
They are just some of the texts I found showing that glory can be had by others in their own right. Notice such ones as the wise, children, kings, Soloman, the people of Israel, those that work good, a woman with long hair, the sun moon and stars, we ourselves and Moses all had glory assigned to them. These ones are not sharing Gods glory. They are assigned glory according to the situation that they were in.
Does John say that Jesus shares Gods glory? John 17 says (RSV) and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.” It does not say that they shared glory but like the other examples Jesus had his own glory. The sort of glory that belongs to an only begotten son. There is no contradiction here at all. Both God and Jesus have their own glory due to the status they both had just like the examples above that had their own glory according to the situations they were in.
How are Jesus and his father one. John 10 :30 says “I and the Father are one." .... Just before that in verse 29 we read .... “ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” .... here God gives something to Jesus and the roll of Jesus is to protect it. God and Jesus are in unity with each other as to a purpose, the gathering of loyal ones that are prepared to follow Jesus and his God.. Jesus handed over this commission to his apostles before he died. Mathew 28 :19-20..
This idea is backed up by what John records in chapter 17 (I will use capitals to highlight some points).... “14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 AS THOU DIDST SEND ME into the world, SO I HAVE SENT THEM INTO THE WORLD.19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,21 THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE; EVEN AS THOU, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 THE GLORY WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME I HAVE GIVEN TO THEM, that THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS WE ARE ONE, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, SO THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME AND HAST LOVED THEM EVEN AS THOU HAST LOVED ME. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me. 26 I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
Two things in that text. First it shows the unity of operation in accomplishing a work. God sent Jesus, Jesus sent his disciples. for the purpose of knowing that it is through the death of Jesus that we as humans can gain life. Second this goes back to the glory of God. God gave Jesus glory and Jesus had the authority to give the glory to his disciples.
You mention what you see as a contradiction in the fact that Hebrews basically assigns the creation of heaven and earth to Jesus and Psalms clearly shows it is God, so how can Jesus be a separate person to God?
JWs believe that both Jesus and his Father, God, can rightly be said to have done the same thing. That is because God commissioned and planned the creative works and Jesus was Gods master worker in doing the work. It is the same relationship as a builder and a contractor. If you had a builders license, you could plan organize and commission a building project. Here in Australia by law when a builder is building a house the have to put a sign up saying who the builder is. That sign has to display certain information such as name, phone number and his general builders license number, so that any one walking past can identify the builder. However as the builder you decide to get someone else to actually do all or some of the work. Can the person not mentioned on the sign actually say to someone else “I built that house”. Yes he can. I friend of mine told me he is building a house. Now this friend knows nothing about building but is getting a licensed builder to do the work. In time my friend can refer to the house as the one he built even thou he never did not work. Why? because he instigated the work.
All tree parties can rightly say they built that particular house. How does this apply to Jesus and God?
First, Proverbs 8 prophetically calling Jesus wisdom and says in verse 30 ...“then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,”... Jesus was Gods master worker. This is further shown in John 1:3.... “all things were made THROUGH him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” (capitals mine).... Also Colossians 1:16 “for IN him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created THROUGH him and for him.”
How do those two texts show that Jesus was Gods worker? Notice the words I put in CAPITALS. From John “THROUGH” and in Colossians “IN” and “THROUGH”. The Greek word rendered “through” is ‘dia'. Strongs Lexicon says ... “dia dia dee-ah'; a primary preposition DENOTING THE CHANNEL OF AN ACT; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional)".... The word rendered IN is translated in many Bibles as “by” … “for by him all things..” Strongs says this word ....“en en en; a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest” .... So these texts back up what Proverbs says about Jesus being the master worker so that Jesus was channel or instrumentality by which creation was done. (see my web page http:// homepages.picknowl.com.au/hepburn for more information on those 2 texts)
You make the following statement that I find hard to reconcile .....” Certainly another contradiction here unless the Son is ONE with the Father.
The Bible calls this a mystery in 1 Timothy 3:16. The NWT renders it a "sacred secret".“ ..... You appear here to be saying that the “mystery” mentioned at 1 Timothy is directly related to “the Son is ONE with the Father”. From the context of 1 Timothy I do not see that.
The chapter that comes from, is describing some of the positions of responsibilities in the congregation that are to be assigned different people. There is no theological discussion happening. The chapter is establishing that an organized system had been set up to re establish true worship under a new arrangement because the Nation of Israel, as a nation, had lost Gods favor. The Nation, as a whole, did not recognize that Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, the Chosen one. so, to them, this new arrangement was a mystery a sacred secret that belonged to the new arrangement that had been introduced by Jesus and at Pentecost.
I hope I do not offend you now when I say I do not agree with this next statement you made. ...."Jesus is the Mighty God"...... Jesus is never referred to the the bible as “THE” Mighty God, only as “Mighty God” and in the context where it is written the indefinite article “a” can be implied. (Isaiah 9:6 “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.") It is included as a name not describing his nature. Can Jesus be called “a god”? See my web page for a discussion on that.
Yes I agree with you Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. We can only get salvation by exercising faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. Our religion is not called “the truth” as a name. The teachings of Christ are the truth. Followers of Jesus were said to walk in the truth (1 John 1:6 ; 3 John 1:4) So if we are going to follow the truth of Jesus then we can be said to walk in truth. There are a lot of texts that just mention “the truth” The thing we all must consider is “What is truth”? If we are walking the way of the truth then we can say we are in the truth and that is what that saying means to us. Any one not walking in the way of the truth is not in the truth.
Thank you again for following up with more questions and please fell free to ask for more clarification on matters.
