About Michael O`Flaherty (Expert=8663) Expertise Did you know that the Bible does talk about the concept of the trinity? Did you know that Jesus did claim to be God, and that unless He washes you, you will not get into heaven? If you want a spirited debate about your beliefs in relation to the Bible, please ask. I will warn you; you might be challenged. Friendly debate only!
Expert: Michael O`Flaherty (Expert=8663) - 4/3/2006
Question Mr. B. wrote:
Paul writes much on the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and the signs that one has indeed. John also writes of the need, work, and purpose of the Holy Spirit in the believer and the evidence of such.
Would you not agree that there are several baptisims spoken of in the new testament? Even a baptisim of fire, as mentioned by Jesus Himself?
Sincerely
Mr. B.
Answer -
Hi Mr. B!
Sure; I agree totally. However, when you quote Acts 19, understand that they were immersed into water. In other words, they were baptized through water into the name of Jesus. And then they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just like Acts 2:
AC 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth; Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Are you saying that this was not by water here?
In Jesus Name!
Michael
www.oflaherty.com/mo.htm
Hi Mr. O' flaherty...
Oh No! Contrare... These had been baptised in water as they said, and Paul replied that water baptisim was a sign of repentence... BUT, they did not receive the Holy Spirit at that time, as they hadn't even heard about this. Verse 5 wouldn't refer to a second water baptisim, but the baptisim of the Holy Spirit. Here by the laying on of Pauls hands. But others received the Holy Spirit without the laying of hands as well as Acts 10:44 states.
Jesus said that those believers in Him, would receive power. when the Holy Spirit came upon/into them. That through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit they would be witnesses, doing the very same things the Holy Spirit did through Jesus as He walked as a human being.
In Hebrews 2:1-4... Talking of salvation, it says that God bore witness to His salvation.. The witness unto ones salvation and the receiving of the Holy Spirit was signs, and wonders, and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit... The gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12, are witness/evidence to the Spirits indwelling.
Paul wrote of those things that *accompany* ones salvation. Hebrews 6:9.
All I'm trying to get at is that if one has only water baptisim, and no Spirit baptisim, then where is the power to do as Jesus said could be done through those who are to be *like* Him? John 14:12
Paul even wrote of those believers who had great sounding words, but no power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
1Th 1:5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake.
2Ti 1:7 For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.
Paul wrote to the roman christians Romans 8:9,10, that anyone who didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they were none of HIS...
So I see it as very important that one make sure they have the evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. For it is the Spirit, who worketh in us, to bring forth the likeness of Christ in all its aspects..(fruit) Otherwise John 15 comes into play..
Do you not see it that way?
Sincerely In Him
Mr. B.
Answer Hi Mr. B!
Well, you seem to keep emphasizing the spiritual side of baptism and ignoring the importance of water.
Again, Jesus was very clear that you need both:
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
So are you saying here that water is not important?
MT 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
As you see in this example, Jesus was immersed in water and then the Spirit descended on him. Spirit and water. Notice that the Spirit descended on him after he came up out of the water. I am amazed that even Jesus' example doesn't convince you that we should follow him through the water.
AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Peter states that you are to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Nowhere in the first part of this equation is the Spirit or a Spirit baptism referenced. Then as a result of this, you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 6 is clear who the letter was written to.
Finally, Peter also states that this same baptism saves you in 1 Peter 3. (Not the water, but the appeal through the water.) His example here is Noah. When Noah boarded the ark, he was in for a rough ride through the water which destroyed the world, and those outside the ark perished. But Noah and his family persevered and when the finished their journey, they arrived in the Promised Land. I believe Peter's illustration is a great example for us. God is asking us to board the ark. We need to pass through the water, and the storm outside is rough, just like being a Christian is a rough ride. But if we preserve to the end, we will also land in Heaven. Those who choose not to board the ark will perish in the storm. Jesus is our ark!
So I guess I am saying that you are replacing many of the verses that refer to water baptism and substituting your own interpretation that they must be referring to Spirit baptism. And even verses that refer to water (especially in Jesus and Peter's case), and either ignoring the water part or saying that the Spirit part replaces the water.
You must be born of water and Spirit to enter heaven. I am not aurguing against the Spirit side of this – that is very important. I will argue, however, that you must be washed of your sins in the way that the Bible prescribes. As Jesus states in John 13:
JN 13:6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" 7 Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." 8 "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." 9 "Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!" 10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean.
So if you have not followed Jesus into the water, then I would encourage you to do as Jesus did!
