Expert: Janko - 3/5/2007

Question
>Well you are wrong because it don't add up.

I'm not wrong, I don't need to add up, I just subtract down (2520 minus 563 = 1957).

>I suggest you get a copy of the book"Pay Attention To >Daniel's Prophecy"and you will come to know all there is >to know.It explains all our teachings,which you should be >interested in
>concerning those important dates.Ask any JW for a copy of >the book and they will give you one for free.

I'm not interested in it because the dates you use in your calculations are not even consistent with what the Bible states the tree represents. The Bible states the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar. But you date your calculations about the tree using someone other than the person which Bible states is represented by the tree.


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>The dates we use are the only ones that fit the minor and >major fulfillment of the prophecy of the"seven times" with >any consistency,with no other dates even coming close.

Rubbish. The dates you use in your calculations are not even consistent with what the Bible states the tree represents. The Bible states the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar. But you date your calculations about the tree using someone other than the person which Bible states is represented by the tree.

>To use that date from your KJV would throw off all the >actual times when those prophecies were fulfilled,so 563 >B.C.is of no real significance.

That assumes your calculations are correct. Your calculations have been found to have been incorrect in the past (like your original calculation that Christ was to return in 1874, for instance)and there is no reason why your calculations might not be wrong now.

Using the date I find in the KJV, 2520 minus 563 = 1957.

That is a much more acceptable and consistent calculation for the fulfillment of this prophecy.

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>I do not no where the KJV came up with that date of 563 B.C.

Neither do I, but it is there in the margin in the KJV I have.

>because it is no significance as to when his madness >started as to your question.

I think it would be. His madness would have started 7 years prior to that date.

>You are referring to the end of the madness after seven >years,but that date you gave from the KJV is incorrect >anyhow.

If JW's don't have a date for the end of the madness after seven years how do you know it is incorrect?  

>It doesn't add up to when the minor and prophecies were >fulfilled if you use that date of 563 B.C. to calculate >anything.

So, your calculations could be wrong.

> I have a KJV and I don't even see that date in the margin >anywhere.

I might have a different KJV than you have. My copy is big, old and leatherbound.

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>I do not like to answer a question with a question,but >this is going nowhere fast.What difference is it to you >what year we teach the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar's >madness?

I see in the margin of the KJV I have at home that the madness ended in 563 bc and I was curious to know what Jehovah's Witnesses think about that date.

>What will this information do for you?

It will tell me whether or not JW's agree, disagree or otherwise with the date on this subject supplied in the margin of the KJV.

>I have told you all I know about this subject.His madness >started after his bad dreams were interpreted to him,and >because he believed it,he went insane for seven years >or"seven times" just as the prophecy foretold.We do not >teach the exact day when he began eating grass like a bull >and so forth,

Does that mean that you do not teach which year his madness began or does it mean that you do teach which year his madness began but you don't teach which day of that particular year it was ?

>but we do teach
>when the prophecy in it's minor fulfillment started which >led to the major fulfillment.This was between 607 B.C. to >1914 C.E.,the appointed times or Gentile Times of the >nations until the Last Days or the Lords Day.I don't know >why your hung up on this and cannot bring yourself to >reason this one out.

I don't know why you don't give an explicit answer the simple question I'm asking but keep talking about other subjects.

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>If you have questions about basketball,then I am a bit of >an expert on it if I might say so myself.

If I asked you about basketball you'd probably tell me all about knitting.

>But he knitting questions you'll have to direct to your >mother.

My mother has been dead for almost 40 years but even though that is the case, if I directed a question to her about knitting I'd probably get as much information from her about my question as I did when I asked you what year Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began.



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>I would rather you ask Sandro or Brenton your questions >and not me anymore.

I'd rather ask them as well because you don't seem to give an answer that relates to the question I asked.

>Your questions are not of any importance to me on the >subjects you have chosen,

The question I asked was about subject I was reading about in the Bible. Would a question about basketball or knitting be more to your intrest?

>so maybe one of the other experts can enlighten you more.

Maybe, but they are probably as expert as you so it might be just a waste of my time to ask them anything about a subject that I read about in the Bible.
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>If you know the exact date when date then why are you >asking me for?

I don't know in what year Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began. You invite people to ask their questions and that's why I'm asking.


>I told you that his madness began during his forty-three >years as king that lasted seven years.

How could his forty-three years as king last only seven years? I am beginning to suspect you are a bit mad yourself.

>Obviously then,
>because his madness was do to a dream he had and it was in >regards to a minor and major fulfillment of a great >prophecy
>and if you count backwards from the fulfillment of it's >major part,you will go back to the year of 607 B.C.

I understand you believe this but what I wish to know is in what year do Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began?

>And no,we do not use any Roman calendar to arrive at this >date.

And no, I didn't think you used any roman calender to arrive at this date. What is the name of the calender that is used on the cover of the Watchtower magazines?



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Janco, You ask me-"Did you not see any dates in the last post?"

I did not and still do not see any dates that answer the simple question I asked LOL, namly, in what year do Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began?

You say- "Take a look once more and see if you can tell what date in time was when it took place as you read the following as to when we believe this prophecy had it's beginning of fulfillment."

Do you mean which date in time you believe the major fulfillment began or which date in time you believe the minor fulfillment began?

The question I am asking obviously relates to when you believe the minor fulfillment began and I see a lot of dates relating to other matters but I don't see any date given for that. I do see that it states the "year of his recovery not being known", therefore I am assuming that Watchtower is teaching that they don't know the year in which his illness began if they don't know the "year (of) his recovery". I am not sure if this assumption is correct hense the follow-up question- Does this mean that Jehovahs Witnesses teach that they don't know when Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began?  
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Does this mean that Jehovahs Witnesses teach that they don't know when Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began?
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“his very hair grew long just like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.” (Daniel 4:33)

In what year do Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Nebuchadnezzar’s  "madness" began?
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Hello Wheel,
Thank you for your question.Yes his insanity began after learning about his disturbing dreams and when they were interpreted to him by Daniel.This happened during his forty-three reign as king after he had the dream about the"seven times"and the tree.He was that tree and would be out of action for seven times so-to-speak.He ate grass like a bull for seven years while his hair and nails grew.Here is a little more information on the time that this occurred:
Thus the “seven times” of Gentile domination began in 607 B.C.E., and yet it was more than a year afterward that King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon got his dream about those “seven times.” (Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32) Another thing: this dream had a typical fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar when he became mad for seven literal “times” (years) and chewed grass like a bull in the field. Does this mean that the “seven times” of Gentile domination could not have begun in 607 B.C.E., before the prophetic dream? Did those Gentile Times first have to begin when the king was recovered from those seven years of madness? No! So, the year of his recovery not being known, this does not require that the “seven times” of Gentile domination of the world must begin first at the fall of Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty in the year 539 B.C.E. If we count the prophetic “seven times” (2,520 years) from Babylon’s fall to the Medes and Persians in 539 B.C.E., then those “seven times” would end in the fall of the year 1982 C.E., still in the future. On that basis, what would be the logical thing to expect in that coming year? The opposite of what took place in 539 B.C.E., namely, the restoration of the dynastic throne of King Nebuchadnezzar, the restoration of the Babylonian Empire with a descendant of Nebuchadnezzar on the throne! Janko

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Did you not see any dates in the last post?Take a look once more and see if you can tell what date in time was when it took place as you read the following as to when we believe this prophecy had it's beginning of fulfillment.
During Nebuchadnezzar’s madness, “his very hair grew long just like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.” (Daniel 4:33) This took longer than seven days or seven weeks. Various translations read “seven times,” and alternatives are “appointed (definite) times” or “time periods.” (Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32) A variant of the Old Greek (Septuagint) reads “seven years.” The “seven times” were treated as “seven years” by the first-century Jewish historian Josephus. (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 10, Chapter 10, paragraph 6) And certain Hebrew scholars have viewed these “times” as “years.” “Seven years” is the rendering in An American Translation, Today’s English Version, and the translation by James Moffatt.

26 Evidently, Nebuchadnezzar’s “seven times” involved seven years. In prophecy, a year averages 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days each. (Compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) So the king’s “seven times,” or seven years, were 360 days multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. But what about the major fulfillment of his dream? The prophetic “seven times” lasted much longer than 2,520 days. This was indicated by Jesus’ words: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) That ‘trampling’ began in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the typical kingdom of God ceased to function in Judah. When would the trampling end? At “the times of restoration of all things,” when divine sovereignty would again be manifested toward the earth through symbolic Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God.—Acts 3:21.

27 If we were to count 2,520 literal days from Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E., that would bring us only to 600 B.C.E., a year having no Scriptural significance. Even in 537 B.C.E., when the liberated Jews were back in Judah, Jehovah’s sovereignty was not manifested on the earth. That was so because Zerubbabel, the heir to David’s throne, was made not king but only governor of the Persian province of Judah.

28 Since the “seven times” are prophetic, we must apply to the 2,520 days the Scriptural rule: “A day for a year.” This rule is set out in a prophecy regarding the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 4:6, 7; compare Numbers 14:34.) The “seven times” of earth’s domination by Gentile powers without interference by God’s Kingdom therefore spanned 2,520 years. They began with the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem in the seventh lunar month (Tishri 15) of 607 B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:8, 9, 25, 26) From that point to 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. The remaining 1,914 years stretch from then to 1914 C.E. Thus, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, ended by Tishri 15, or October 4/5, 1914 C.E.

29 In that year “the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled, and God gave rulership to “the lowliest one of mankind”—Jesus Christ—who had been considered so base by his foes that they even had him impaled. (Daniel 4:17) To enthrone the Messianic King, Jehovah loosened the symbolic iron and copper bands around the “rootstock” of his own sovereignty. The Most High God thus allowed a royal “sprout” to grow from it as a manifestation of divine sovereignty toward the earth by means of the heavenly Kingdom in the hands of David’s greatest Heir, Jesus Christ. (Isaiah 11:1, 2; Job 14:7-9; Ezekiel 21:27) How we thank Jehovah for this blessed turn of events and for unraveling the mystery of the great tree! Janko
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If you know the exact date when date then why are you asking me for?I told you that his madness began during his forty-three years as king that lasted seven years.Obviously then,
because his madness was do to a dream he had and it was in regards to a minor and major fulfillment of a great prophecy
and if you count backwards from the fulfillment of it's major part,you will go back to the year of 607 B.C.And no,we do not use any Roman calendar to arrive at this date.
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I would rather you ask Sandro or Brenton your questions and not me anymore.Your questions are not of any importance to me on the subjects you have chosen,so maybe one of the other experts can enlighten you more.
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If you have questions about basketball,then I am a bit of an expert on it if I might say so myself.But he knitting
questions you'll have to direct to your mother.
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I do not like to answer a question with a question,but this is going nowhere fast.What difference is it to you what year we teach the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar's madness?What will this information do for you?I have told you all I know about this subject.His madness started after his bad dreams were interpreted to him,and because he believed it,he went insane for seven years or"seven times" just as the prophecy foretold.We do not teach the exact day when he began eating grass like a bull and so forth,but we do teach
when the prophecy in it's minor fulfillment started which led to the major fulfillment.This was between 607 B.C. to 1914 C.E.,the appointed times or Gentile Times of the nations until the Last Days or the Lords Day.I don't know why your hung up on this and cannot bring yourself to reason this one out.
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I do not no where the KJV came up with that date of 563 B.C.
because it is no significance as to when his madness started as to your question.You are referring to the end of the madness after seven years,but that date you gave from the KJV is incorrect anyhow.It doesn't add up to when the minor and prophecies were fulfilled if you use that date of 563 B.C. to calculate anything. I have a KJV and I don't even see that date in the margin anywhere.
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The dates we use are the only ones that fit the minor and major fulfillment of the prophecy of the"seven times" with any consistency,with no other dates even coming close.To use that date from your KJV would throw off all the actual times when those prophecies were fulfilled,so 563 B.C.is of no real significance.
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Well you are wrong because it don't add up.I suggest you get a copy of the book"Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy"and you will come to know all there is to know.It explains all our teachings,which you should be interested in
concerning those important dates.Ask any JW for a copy of the book and they will give you one for free.

Answer
What does 1957 have to do with any prophecy being fulfilled?
All the signs of the"last days"or the end of the Gentile Times point to 1914 when all those signs Jesus said to be on the watch for,and apostle Paul said there will be critical times will be here and hard to deal with in the last days.Nothing points to 1957 to any of those things that already began in 1914 with the first world war,then the second war that followed.It don't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out,only common sense and logic
from a little research.If you get that book I mentioned it explains what all the minor and major prophecy means.Our calculations are the only ones that make any sense that fit.