About Brenton Hepburn Expertise I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT, the so called mind control problems, so called prophecies, and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses.....
>>>>WARNING<<<<<< ....Please be aware that there are at least ... 3 .... people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs and, (at other times there have been as many as 5.) These ones will, at times, appear to have an agenda against JWs., and will often give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask them a question that is fine, but if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question
Experience I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.
Education/Credentials I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek.
Was a public tax accountant for many yrars untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up.
Question Mr Hepburn, In your response on this issue you have ignored the first rule in determining the meaning and intent of a word, or phrase, and that is *context,* I don’t say this to sound mean, but you have instead let some pre-disposed theological outlook govern and taint your interpretation of certain passages, and by extension the rest of Scripture. You have discarded a very simple principal in favour of your theological view. Allow me to demonstrate.
Your version of the events of Genesis 3, ignore the context. You claim that the Hebrew word “paniym” translated presence, in some version must be understand “figurative” because as your reasoning goes, Adam and Eve only “heard the sound ‘voice’ of God but did not see him” [Brenton Hepburn]. And so that is why they “hid” themselves.
The obvious problem with this is that Genesis 3:8 says that Adam and Eve heard the sound (or voice) of someone WAKING in the garden, during a specific part to the day! The context of verse 8 clearly shows that “paniym” is not figurative. One must ignore the context to arrive at the conclusion you have stated. What Adam and Eve heard was someone *walking* in the garden (who does the text say it was?), and they hid themselves. Do you not see this? If you still cannot see this then let me know, and I’ll point out other factors.
You next move on to Exodus 24:11 and quote from the JW bible; “they got a vision of…” what kind of wooden translation is that? Anyway, again CONTEXT is the defining factor of translating words and phrases, not a pre-disposed theological outlook. From your own wooden translation, “And he [context shows that the ‘he’ refers to God] did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel,” in other words God did not strike them down, one cannot see God and live, but they did, this verse verifies this, there is no other way to understand this sentence. On top of this when one reads the context of Gen. 24:11 then one cannot help but see that verse 11 is just a confirmation of what verse 10 says, these Israelites not only saw God and lived, they also saw what was under God’s feet!
Again if you can’t see that it is through context that we must translate the meaning of words and phrases, and accept what it says, then let me know and I’m demonstrating this further for you. I look forward to your response.
Answer Greetings Concerned
I would like to look at Genesis 3:8.again. You say I ignore the context. I would like to point out that the context includes ALL of the Bible as well as a particular verse.
It would seem that this verse has a lot of problems with translators. First I give 3 renderings with links to Strongs Lexicon
Please take particular not of the words that are rendered voice <06963> and presence <06440>, and you will see that there is no consensus as to how to render them into English.. For word <06963> we have 2 renderings voice and sound. For <06440> we have 3 renderings, presence, eyes and face
Authorized Version
And they heard <08085> (8799) the voice <06963> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> walking <01980> (8693) in the garden <01588> in the cool <07307> of the day <03117>: and Adam <0120> and his wife <0802> hid themselves <02244> (8691) from the presence <06440> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> amongst <08432> the trees <06086> of the garden <01588>.
NKJV
And they heard <08085> (8799) the sound <06963> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> walking <01980> (8693) in the garden <01588> in the cool <07307> of the day <03117>, and Adam <0120> and his wife <0802> hid themselves <02244> (8691) from the presence <06440> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> among <08432> the trees <06086> of the garden <01588>.
Revised Webster’s
And they heard <08085> (8799) the voice <06963> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> walking <01980> (8693) in the garden <01588> in the cool <07307> of the day <03117>: and Adam <0120> and his wife <0802> hid themselves <02244> (8691) from the presence <06440> of the LORD <03068> God <0430> among <08432> the trees <06086> of the garden <01588>.
American Standard 1901
8 And they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah God amongst the trees of the garden.
Bible in Basic English
And there came to them the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening wind: and the man and his wife went to a secret place among the trees of the garden, away from the eyes of the Lord God.
Darby
And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah Elohim, in the midst of the trees of the garden.
Douay
And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise.
JB2000
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
JK21century
And they heard the voice of the LORD God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Rotherham
Then heard they the sound of Yahweh God, walking to and fro in the garden, at the breeze of the day,-so he hid himself-the man with his wife, from the face of Yahweh God, amid the trees of the garden.
RSV
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Young’s Literal
And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
None of the renderings say it was God that was walking in the garden, but the VOICE of God was walking, or, the SOUND of God was walking. This, in context, suggests that it is something that could NOT be seen. Do you know of any one that can see a voice or a sound? What about the “face of God”. Is it possible that the word rendered “face” may not literally mean a face such as the ones we have? You know with eyes, nose and mouth etc
Genesis 1:2 says that water has “face” Please Note. “The earth <0776> was <01961> (8804) without form <08414>, and void <0922>; and darkness <02822> was on the face <06440> of the deep <08415>. And the Spirit <07307> of God <0430> was hovering <07363> (8764) over <05921> the face <06440> of the waters <04325>.” (AV)...... Word <06440> (the same word used in Gen 3:8) is rendered “face” in the following Bibles, American Standard 1901, Bible in Basic English, Darby, JB200, JPS, JK21century, Rotherham, RSV, Young’s Literal. Even though these say the face of the water, we know that is not talking about the literal face, with eyes nose and mouth.
John Gill’s Expository says about “the face” or “presence”…
QUOTE
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God, amongst the trees of the garden; conscious of their guilt, and vainly imagining they could flee from HIS PRESENCE, WHICH IS EVERYWHERE, and hide themselves from his SIGHT, BEFORE WHOM EVERY creature is MANIFEST,
end quote (Capitals mine to emphasis idea)
It is true that some commentators on that particular verse agree with your idea. We take the same view (as John Gill) that Gods presence can be felt wherever we are. So our view is that it was not Gods face that they hid from, (NOTE: they text never says that they saw the face of God they hid from the face of God) but, the presence of God.
What about Exodus 24:10? Did they actually see God? Again it is also the context of the Bible as a whole.
You say that the NWT rendering of Exodus 24:11 where the Hebrew word <07200> (raah) as vision is wooden. Well that just happens to be one of the meanings of the word.
STRONGS
07200. har raÆah raw-aw’; a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):
You say that verse 11 supports this idea It reads "11 And upon the nobles <0678> of the children <01121> of Israel <03478> he laid <07971> (8804) not his hand <03027>: also they saw <02372> (8799) God <0430>, and did eat <0398> (8799) and drink <08354> (8799)."
Here is the meaning according to Strongs for the phrase "they saw <02372>"
02372. hzx chazah khaw-zaw’; a primitive root; to gaze at; mentally, to perceive, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically, to have a vision of:- behold, look, prophesy, provide, see.
And the New American Standard Bible Hebrew Lexicon says
02372. hzx chazah (302b); a prim. root; see, behold:-
NAS-behold (7), envisioned in visions (1), gaze (2), gloat (1), look (3), looked (1), prophesy (3), saw (7), see (12), seeing (1), seen (7), sees (4), select (1).
Verse 11 in context of the verse and the rest of the Bible shows that these 72 men saw God by way of vision.
Please notice these non JW commentaries of this verse
Jamieson, Fausset Brown Commentary says
QUOTE
That there was no visible form or representation of the divine nature, we have expressly intimated (#De 4:15). But a symbol or emblem of His glory was distinctly, and at a distance, displayed before those chosen witnesses.
End quote
De 4:15 mentioned above says "Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,”
Full Matthew Henry Commentary says
QUOTE
They saw the God of Israel (#Ex 24:10), that is, they HAD SOME GLIMPSE of HIS GLORY, in light and fire, though they saw NO MANNER OF SIMILITUDE similitude, and his being no man hath seen nor can see, #1Ti 6:16. They saw the place where the God of Israel stood (so the LXX), something that came near a similitude, but was not; whatever they saw, it was certainly something of which no image nor picture could be made, and yet enough to satisfy them that God was with them of a truth. Nothing is described but that which was under his feet; for our conceptions of God are all below him, and fall infinitely short of being adequate.
End quote (Capitals mine to emphasis idea)
The word similitude means (according to several on line dictionaries)
1) One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
2)A perceptible likeness.
3)likeness; resemblance: a similitude of habits
4)a person or thing that is like or the match or counterpart of another: This expression is a similitude of the other.
5) semblance; image: a similitude of the truth
The text he refers to is 1 Tim 6:16 says “who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.” Notice here (from different Trinitarian commentators) that we are told "no man has ever seen or can see"
Matthew Pools Commentary says
QUOTE
Ver. 10. They saw the God of Israel; NOT ANY VISIBLE RESEMBLANCE of the Divine nature, which is expressly denied, #De 4:15 1Ti 6:16, and was refused to Moses when he desired it, #Ex 33:18,20, and therefore surely would never be granted to the elders of Israel; but some glorious appearance or token of God’s special presence; or rather, the Second Person in the Trinity, who now showed himself to them in a human and glorious shape, as an essay and testimony of his future incarnation. This may seem probable,
End quote (Capitals mine to emphasis idea)
The texts references he uses are
De 4:15 mentioned above says "Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,”
1 Tim 6:16 says “who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”
Ex 33:18 Moses said, "I pray thee, show me thy glory."
Ex 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."
So the context of the Bible tells me that Adam and Eve as well as the Moses Aaron and the 70 Elders did not actually see God. Now remember Moses wrote Genesis as well as the accounts in Exodus and Deuteronomy. So by Moses own hand he tells us it is impossible for man to see God and live. Did he contradict himself when writing the various passages?
Some take the view that what was seen in Geneses and Exodus was not God the father but Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. They have to come to this conclusion because of the contradiction that is apparent. However there is no text to show that it was Jesus that was seen. It was the God of the Israelites that was seen, and as Trinitarians like to point out that God said there is no other God but me. So to take the view that the God mentioned in Gen and Exo. accounts is the second person of the trinity is to suggest more that one God in view of John 1:18. 1 Tim 6:16. Ex. 33:18 and Ex. 33:20 as quoted above
If you want to believe that God was actually seen by those individuals, you are free to do so, however I will firmly believe the FULL CONTEXT of the Bible and say as John did at John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time”
