AboutRomy Brown Expertise I`ve been a member of the mormon church my whole life.
I know that the morman church is the only true church,
because of personal and spiritual experiences.
Experience I can tell you about our belief's and where in the scriptures.
you can find them,and if I don't have an answer for you I am determined to find an answer for you.
I can answer most anti-morman questions.
Organizations I'm a member of the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
(the Mormons)
Question QUESTION: Hi Romy - I gotta hand it to you, you certainly could give James Michener a run for his money when it comes to being prolific! No doubt you spent hours on your last response. I appreciate your taking your time to continue this dialogue with me.
In reading your reply about the Trinity it’s clear that this concept, while real, is certainly a difficult one to grasp intellectually. 3 in 1, 1 in 3, huh? I get it. At the end of the day, God is God, and because He can do anything He wants, he’s revealed himself to us as Himself, Spirit/Father, His Son, Jesus, (the Word), and His Holy Spirit. All 3 have the full power and authority of God, Jesus tells us this. Now, when Jesus talks about going to sit at the right hand of the Father, He certainly isn’t lying, He’s describing that he is in submission to God the Father, yet He also says that He and the Father are one, in purpose and in substance, yet revealed in 3 distinct persons (not to be read as corporial, as certainly the Holy Spirit is not corporial). This is the tough part about understanding the trinity. Suffice it to say that it requires faith in the unseen, and even if we don’t fully understand it, which NO ONE on earth does, that’s okay. Faith and acceptance of Christ, and Christ alone, is the key.
You Wrote: The GodHead is unified. The three our [are] one God in purpose, and yet they are separate individuals and it explained so in John 17:21-23. I agree, of course, as the Bible says so. They are unified, they are the Godhead, which is God, as he has revealed Himself to us in 3 distinct persons. I think we’ve beat this horse to death….
You wrote: You stated Exo 33:20 which you made your point that no one can see God and live.
You are only half right. You can not see God with your physical eyes, but you can with your spiritual eyes if God wants to transfigure you so can see him and his glory he can do so.
My response: I don’t disagree with you at all on this. In fact, however, it does not prove that God himself is of flesh. The Bible clearly states that God is spirit. The phraseology ‘face to face’ is not meant to be interpreted as if you and I were standing next to each other, it’s figurative.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
You didn’t respond to the verse in Psalm 91:4. Does this then mean that God has an avian body? Of course not, it’s picturesque/metaphorical language. Your books use same.
Your discourse on the Rev 22 chapter misses a few key things. One, the New Testament writers and Jesus himself quote from the Old Testament quite regularly. Early Christians did have the Bible then, albeit the OT.
You wrote: The Bible is a collection of sacred writings that were compiled into book format centuries after the death of the original writers. When the Apostle John wrote these verses, the Bible as we know it today had not been compiled yet. Therefore, his words could not possibly be applied to the entire collection of writings today known as the Bible. John was referring specifically to the Book of Revelation.
The writings were in fact in use on a daily basis by the early Christians. Not all of the NT, but the OT, absolutely. Look how many OT references are used by Christ and the other NT writers. After all the Pharisees knew the Law (OT) the best of anyone then, yet they couldn’t keep the Law perfectly themselves. Thus Jesus came to fulfill the Law Himself, as ONLY he is capable of doing. He’s our atoning redeemer because our best efforts will never be perfect, and only perfection will be allowed in Heaven. No amount of work gets us any closer to heaven. Read Eph 2:8-9. That’s why Christians are viewed THROUGH Jesus, (think of a filter or something) so that God sees Jesus when he looks at us. This is only hope we have. Jesus is the Judge and all will be judged Him and Him alone. His authority alone, no one else’s.
You Wrote: I state this is not true. What about Matt. 7:21-23 - Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven. What about Matt. 16:24-27 -we'll be judged by our works.
My response: Again, Jesus is not stating that works = salvation, in any way. Here are the verses:
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
What he’s saying is that our salvation comes from the “reading of our heart” that ONLY Jesus can do. The Pharisee’s to whom he was talking, were great practitioners of the LAW and knew it well, yet he states quite clearly, “…depart from me, you WORKERS (my emphasis) of lawlessness. See they were doing GOOD WORKS, yet Jesus doesn’t save based on works at all.
In Mt 16:24-27
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
…”or what shall a man GIVE in return for his soul.” Once again, Jesus is talking about salvation and that the ONLY salvation is the belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ; He is fully sufficient, and the ONLY way to heaven. No works not anything else.
Your statement about LDS exemplary lives: It's ironic that even anti-LDS writings frequently extol the highly exemplary lives led by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’ve never once said the LDS aren’t fine people, I know several. However, just as in Christianity, being a good person, leading a “good” life, being a good family member and all that; without personally accepting Jesus as king and the ONLY savior, you’re going straight to Hell. Period. Jesus says so himself.
You wrote: You keep saying that I am contradicting myself but I am not. We are not saved by our own personal works, but we are save[d] by grace along with the works of our righteous desires and by keeping the Christ’s commandments. There is a difference.
My response: You made my argument for me. You clearly state that LDS believes in a faith PLUS works method of salvation. This is not what Jesus teaches. Remember, the guy on the cross next to Jesus…. He certainly did no good works. Yet he was saved right there on the spot because Jesus knew his heart. It’s about our hearts, not our works. Our hearts in Christ lead us to do good works, but this isn’t our salvation. It’s our commissioning of the Holy Spirit to reach others for His Kingdom, to draw others to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts.
“ and then he will repay each person according to what he has done”. Jesus is not talking about salvation, he’s talking about the rewards for our works while on earth (our treasures stored up in Heaven) and yes, we will be judged on our works, but judgment does not equal salvation. Please try to see this point. See, no one deserves Heaven, but almighty God loves us so much that the only way we could possibly be with Him for all eternity is through Jesus. We will ALWAYS sin while here on earth, maybe a little more maybe a little less than others, but the point is, NO sin enters into the kingdom…thus Jesus Christ was sent for us.
Read John 3:16-21:
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
Jesus does talk about works here, works “carried out in God”. 3:16 is the salvation equation… “believes in Him”. Not believes in Him AND do works. Good works (carried out in God) is a byproduct of the leading of the Holy Spirit that resides in us as Christ followers, not a means, method or requirement for salvation.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus doesn’t include JW Smith or anyone else. He Alone is sufficient. It appears that the Jesus of LDS is not the Jesus of the Bible….especially given the LDS belief that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Huh? Lucifer is a created being, created by the creator, the triune God of the Bible. Jesus is above all things all names. He is Lord. Brother of Lucifer? Please Romy.
I brought up B. Young’s teachings that you didn’t respond to last time. Could you address this from your perspective? Please find for me that JW Smith also must ‘allow’ people into heaven in the Bible. This I hope you can see is quite heretical teaching, because it removes the supremacy and sufficiency of Jesus as our savior.
Brigham Young, the successor to Joseph Smith, makes it clear:
"Believe in God, believe in Jesus, and believe in Joseph his prophet, and Brigham his successor, and you shall be saved."
It is not enough to believe in God and Jesus, you must believe also that Joseph Smith is the prophet and that Brigham Young is the successor. He continues:
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."
See… “consent of JW Smith”, as if he’s equal to God or something? Please Romy, you’ve got to feel something in your heart that this is just not right. You said yourself God is supreme and while you wrongly state that we will become gods, in your words you also stated that we will always be under God. JW Smith was a human being full and full. Subject to the same sin world and sinful ways that you and I are and eveyone else is. Whether or not he had this vision from God, he certainly hasn’t attained any sort of godhood, he’s dead in the ground, and based on his teachings and beliefs, which deny the full sufficiency of Christ, his spirit certainly isn’t in heaven.
You wrote in one of our earlier exchanges:
We believe that human beings can grow and progress spiritually until, through the mercy and grace of Christ, we can inherit and possess all that the Father has-they can become gods. This is taught in revelations given to modern prophets ( D&C 76:58; 132:19-20), as well as in sermons delivered by Joseph Smith. A couplet written by Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS Church, states: As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.
This doctrine is generally referred to as deification, and the LDS expression of this doctrine is often misrepresented and misunderstood. We do not believe that human beings will ever be independent of God, or that we will ever cease to be subordinate to God.
My Response: Snow asserts, As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be. In a couple sentence previous to this statement “ …possess all that the Father has – they can become gods.
Then a couple sentences after Snows words, ” or that we will ever cease to be subordinate to God.”
These statements are in direct conflict: possess ALL that the Father has, i.e. be as the Father, conflicts directly with “or that we will ever cease to be subordinate to God.” Which is it? AS the Father, or subordinate to the Father, which means we don’t possess ALL that the Father has. This doesn’t require a theological debate, this is simple logic. The two statements are incongruent. There is only ONE Supreme Being, God. There isn’t two or more. LDS states this in their doctrine.
Another contradiction within LDS itself is this: If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a god? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37) I thought LDS believes in becoming a god of some sort?
On the subject of archaeology, I must respectfully submit that your argument holds no water. Not a single shred of evidence has ever been found directly supporting the Mormon documents. Regardless of whether or not we know the names of those cities, nothing has ever been found to prove Smiths cities, rivers, towns and their geography (toponym). My feeling is and research has supported this, is that LDS are reluctant to go here, because they know they have no credible argument to support these unfounded things. As for the Book of Mormon being an ancient text, where are the golden plates that supposedly contained such writings? Someone carried them off to heaven? Aren’t they intended for man’s (LDS) purposes? The Bible’s original texts still exist can be read, touched, examined by anyone. And none conflict themselves.
I had asked you to address the thousands of changes in the Book of Mormon. If it were truly inspired by God to Smith, why any changes, even if just one? LDS states God is perfect, so therefore He’s incapable of making a mistake. Yet there are over 3900 known and documented changes and counting? Doesn’t this make you the least bit suspicious? You sound like a very intelligent person Romy, and I can’t imagine you not ever having a twisted brow at some point on the inconsistencies and changes in LDS doctrine, etc. Like blacks not being admitted and now they can be? God wasn’t a racist but LDS certainly practiced this for many many years before changing it. Again, God doesn’t change, and he certainly isn’t racist.
Look, my wife was once in the Worldwide Church of God, created by Herbert W Armstrong. This cult has undergone so many changes as they realized the heresy of their teachings. There is still a small faction of the original church, called United I believe, but the majority has splintered off and accepted evangelical Christianity and its true doctrines. Well, after being in that church for 21 years, it was quite difficult for her to see the error in her ways and of the teachings. Only through the grace of Jesus and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, the Bible and other Christians, me of course included, has her heart changed. And it took years! Much, not all, of the teachings in WWC are directly parallel to LDS. Some of their beliefs included: The only church, no trinity, (in fact they didn’t believe in the holy spirit), annihilationism vs. eternal Hell, no celebration of the christian holidays, keeping of ancient Jewish laws, faith PLUS WORKS, and so on. Imagine how hard that must have been to unthink all these things. Armstrong, like Smith said he had a vision back in the 1800’s and pridefully created this church which has been wrought with error from the get go. Yet he stated he was inspired by God and prophesied many things, of course which have never happened. Sound familiar? He, like Smith to claim to have had a revelation that has undone the last 1800 years of sound provable doctrine is simply heretical. Charles Taze Russell, creator of Jehovah’s Witness, too, back in the 1800’s had a problem with Hell, so out came the JW’s. Much of the same teachings as LDS, WWC, and others. Again, these doctrines are worldwide considered heresy by the scholars of the Bible, studiers of ancient texts, etc., and of course the Bible itself.
Okay, my fingers are tired now and you’re probably going cross eyed with all this text. Would you be willing to exchange email addresses rather than go through that website? It would be way easier to continue our dialogue.
I look forward to your next reply Romy
John
[I’m still praying for you ;-) ]
ANSWER: Critics of the Church often claim that there have been significant doctrinal changes to the Book of Mormon since the first printing. They make these false claims to discredit our assertion that the Book of Mormon was translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith through the gift and power of God.
First, while we claim that the Book of Mormon is true scripture, we do not claim that the entire process for bringing the translation to the world was free from error. It is important to remember that the Church claims that only Jesus Christ was perfect and did not make mistakes.
Some minor errors, mainly spelling and grammatical, in the text have been perpetuated in past editions of the Book of Mormon. The current edition contains corrections that seem appropriate to bring the material in conformity with pre-production manuscripts and early editions edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
At first, the 3,913 changes you cite sound rather significant. But if you recheck your source you will find that even the anti-Mormons Jerald and Sandra Tanner admit that the 3,913 changes were not really significant at all:
"As we stated earlier, most of the 3,913 changes which we found were related to the correction of grammatical and spelling errors and do not really change the basic meaning of the text." (Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism, Chicago: Moody Pres., 1980, p 131, emphasis added)
When the Prophet Joseph dictated the translation from the plates, a scribe copied down his words. Since only Jesus Christ was perfect, it is not surprising that the scribes made some minor errors. In addition, the non-Mormon typesetter that the Church hired to take the handwritten manuscript to book form was forced to decipher the scribe’s handwriting to set the type. Also, consider that the printing process in 1830 was much more manual and cumbersome than the ones we use today. With all the intervention by fallible mortals required to bring forth the printing of the Book of Mormon, it is surprising that more grammatical and spelling errors were not made. It is important to note that the changes in the Book of Mormon text are actually insignificant to the number of changes that have been made in the Bible throughout the centuries.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Romy - there have been significant changes in LDS doctrine. Blacks not being allowed and then being allowed? Polygamy no polygamy. There has NEVER been doctrinal change of the Bible, ever. Different translations from the original greek text yes, NKJ, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc. but the original texts themselves have not changed ever. No one's going in to the original texts and erasing Paul's (for example) words and replacing them with other words. Oh and let's not forgot, the Bible's original texts are still here and available for study, unlike some alleged gold plates in a hillside in NY that no one but Smith and his scribe say they found. Have you seen them? How do you know that 1, they really existed, and 2, even if they did, that they were translated properly? You see Christians have access to ALL the Biblical truth sources. Wonder why that is and LDS has none, which after all were a set of plates? Hmmm?
Your argument about Smith and his scribe making spelling errors, and what not, come on now Romy, are you really buying this? Not that humans aren't fallible, but if True Inspiration occurred from God Almighty himself, who makes no mistakes [doctrinal or grammatical], there would be none in Smith's.
I understand now why you haven't addressed any of my other points from my previous post on this thread. You can't explain them, support them, or prove them. I get it now. But I have to think that since Brigham is one of your prophets, and you [the entirety of LDS is commanded to] buy whatever they say, and he says that no one gets to heaven without JW Smith's a-okay, that in and of itself makes the entire LDS church fradulent. LDS = Jesus PLUS a bunch of other [heretical] things. Actually now that I've wrote that, I guess if its not Jesus ALONE, then enough said. Any Jesus PLUS something is heresy. Christianity is NOT a religion, its a relationship with Christ. Religion is rules and regulations, and duty and obligation [LDS and many others, including much of Catholicism for that matter]
Christianity is relationship with Jesus, period. Through this relationship we will do good things because of Him, for Him, through Him, but these works certainly don't buy us our ticket to Heaven. Sure the ten commandments are to be followed, but so are speed limits on the highways, you can follow the limit, but may still get in an accident. See we are SAVED by grace through faith in Christ alone, and not of our works so that none may boast. Eph 2:8-9 Period. It doesn't get any clearer than that.
I have been praying to God that he might lift the veil from you and that you repent of your errors and ask God to forgive, restore and heal you. He will you know! There's always room at the foot of the cross to lay down our burdens and our sins. The Blood of Jesus covers and cleanses ALL sins. Yes, even murder. Remember our buddy Paul of the NT? Oh and remember our friend David? A man after God's own heart. God calls him the "apple of his eye". And yet this even after Bathsheba, the plot and murder of her husband. You see, God sees our heart and that's where salvation is, from our hearts through Christ alone. Man on the cross next to Jesus, remember?
I assume that you not acknowledging to exchange email addresses means no. I respect that. Just thought I'd ask.
God bless you
John
Answer There were no direct revelations which stated that blacks we not allowed to hold the Priesthood. It wasn’t until 1978 the revalation stated that all worthy males should be allowed to hold the Priesthood. Some black men did hold the Mormon Priesthood before 1978! But except in the case of Elijah Abel and his descendants, all men of Hamitic lineage (bloodline) were forbidden to hold the LDS Priesthood before 1978. However, black-skinned men of non-Hamitic lineages, like the Dravidians of India, the Aborigines of Australia, the Melansians of Fiji and Melanesia, and the Negritoes of the Philipines and Indonesia, all had a right to the Priesthood, and those who were worthy Members of the Church held it before 1978. Also, white-skinned Hamites could not hold the Priesthood or partake of the higher ordinances of Mormon Temples until 1978.
Answers to questions about why the Lord, in his wisdom, chooses to withhold certain privileges or blessings from certain people for a period of time are generally not known to us. At the time of Moses, the Melchizedek Priesthood was taken from the children of Israel. In its stead they were given the Aaronic, or Lesser, Priesthood. This priesthood was restricted to worthy males of the tribe of Levi. We are told in a revelation on the priesthood that the higher priesthood was taken because the children of Israel failed to sanctify themselves that they might stand in the presence of God ( D&C 84:19-25). This statement, however, leaves unanswered the question about why unborn generations were denied the priesthood because of the failure of their progenitors. Many similar situations exist. Why, for instance, are some nations required to wait so much longer than others to receive the blessings of the gospel? Or why are some couples who want children so badly unable to have them? Or why are some who desire to find a companion to whom they can be sealed in the temple unable to do so?
Our living prophets provide us with the perfect example of how the Lord deals with His servants, giving us the exciting opportunity to see firsthand (though somewhat modernized) what it must have been like to hear the messages of the Lord, to His people in ancient times. The Bible also contains a comparative wealth of information from which one may glean examples of the Lord's dealings with His servants, the prophets.
The Scriptures are replete with references which state to the effect that the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that He does not change from age to age, and that with Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning ( Hebrews 13:8; Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
Although the Lord uses many diverse ways and means to communicate His truths and to deal with His servants, each of these methods follow patterns which, upon examination, are found to be quite consistent. This consistency--if there are other examples of the same patterns--may be as identifiable as a fingerprint. Therefore, if we find that the Church's former policy of "priesthood ban" is consistent with one or more of these patterns, we then, logically, have strong grounds for the belief that this policy both began and ended by direct revelation from God, as the LDS Church has constantly and consistently testified for well over a century.
Thus, if it is found that the Lord indeed, at various times during both the Old and New Testament periods, did restrict blessings from, or delay blessings to, certain individuals or nations for any reason, whether known or unknown, it can be demonstrated that this policy and its subsequent abolishment could have had as its basis direct revelation from God.
Let go on to Polygamy. Due to religious bigotry over the practice of plural marriage, the United States government announced its intent to destroy the Latter-day Saint people. Following a vision showing him that continuing plural marriage endangered the temples and the mission of the Church, not just statehood, President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto in October 1890, announcing an official end to new plural marriages and facilitating an eventual peaceful resolution of the conflict with the United States government.
When outside influences affect our "... privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience ..." (11th Article of Faith), there are two general approaches to take. One can either resist or submit. The correct approach depends upon the particular circumstances.
When the issue at stake is essential to our exaltation and salvation, the Lord allows us to resist those opposing influences. As the Book of Mormon states:
"And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion." (Alma 43:47)
However, if the issue is not essential to our salvation, then we must be "subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." (12th Article of Faith) The Holy Bible has a story which demonstrates this principle:
"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute [money] came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee." (Matthew 17:24-7)
In these passages, Jesus explains that while the requirement to pay tribute is unjust, they should pay it to keep from offending the Romans. Why? The Lord expects us to obey the constituted government on issues that do not impact our salvation.
The Church used every legal means to appeal the anti-polygamy legislation. However, once the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed it's constitutionality, President Woodruff decided to obey the law after receiving revelatory experiences and confirmation from the Lord. Since the practice of Plural Marriage is not essential to our salvation, the Lord did not want the church impaired by continuing it's practice. The Lord does not always immediately show forth power to destroy the enemies of his people. The ancient Israelites were in bondage many years before they were finally released from their afflictions.
As stated in the Doctrine and Covenants, when our ability to keep the Lord's commandments is restricted, the Lord does not hold us accountable for them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings. And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God." (D&C 124:49-50)
Occasionally, some people find fault with the Latter-day Saints for backing down to the government persecution. Those who hold this position deny the instructions from the Savior about not offending government officials. By finding fault with Latter-day Saints, they also find fault with Jesus.
You claim that there has never been any doctrinal changes in the bible. Not true.
Of course no one wants to talk about the many changes that have taken place in the King James Version of the Bible. Here are just a few of those changes.
Her is whats said in the 1811 Edition of the Bible and then we will compare it to the Current Edition
1611 Edition
Deut. 26:1 - And it shall be when thou art come in unto the land which the LORD giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;
Josh. 13:29 - And Moses gave inheritance unto the half tribe of Manasseh: and this was the possession of the half tribe of Manasseh, by their families.
Ruth 3:15 - Also he said, Bring the veil that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and he went into the city.
Ps. 69:32 - The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek good.
Jer. 34:16 - But ye turned and polluted my Name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom ye had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return; and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.
Jer. 49:1 - Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? Why then doth their king inherit God, and his people dwell in his cities?
Matt. 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered, and said, Thou art Christ the son of the living God.
Mark 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.
1 Cor. 4:9 - For I think that God hath set forth us the Apostles last, as it were approved to death. For we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to Angels, and to men.
1 John 5:12 - He that hath the Son, hath life; and he that hath not the Son, hath not life.
Lets compare those scriptures to the Current Edition of the Bible
Deut. 26:1 - And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;
Josh. 13:29 - And Moses gave inheritance unto the half tribe of Manasseh: and this was the possession of the half tribe of the children of Manasseh, by their families.
Ruth 3:15 - Also he said, Bring the veil that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and she went into the city.
Ps. 69:32 - The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
Jer. 34:16 - But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom he had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.
Jer. 49:1 - Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit Gad, and his people dwell in his cities?
Matt. 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mark 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
1 Cor. 4:9 - For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1 John 5:12 - He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life.
Some more scripture differs:
Genesis 19:21 - A.V. KJV (1611) - concerning this thing Current KJV (1850) - concerning this thing also
Genesis 23:18 - A.V. KJV (1611) gates /Current KJV gate
Genesis 39:1 - A.V. KJV (1611) - hand /Current KJV - hands
Genesis 39:16 - A.V. KJV (1611) her lord / Current KJV - his lord
Genesis 47:6 - A.V. KJV (1611) any man/ Current KJV - any men
Exodus 15:25A.V. KJV (1611) he made a statute/Current KJV he made for them a statute
Exodus 21:32A.V. KJV (1611) thirty shekels/Current KJV thirty shekels of silver
Exodus 23:13A.V. KJV (1611) names /Current KJV name
Exodus 35:29 - A.V. KJV hands(1611) / Current KJV hand
Leviticus 2:4A.V. KJV (1611) it shall be an unleavened cake / Current KJV it shall be unleavened cakes
Leviticus 10:14A.V. KJV (1611) sacrifice / Current KJV sacrifices
Leviticus 19:34A.V. KJV shall be as one born (1611) / Current KJV shall be unto you as one born
Leviticus 20:11A.V. KJV (1611)shall be put to death / Current KJV shall surely be put to death
Leviticus 25:23A.V. KJV (1611)were strangers / Current KJV are strangers
Leviticus 26:23A.V. KJV (1611) be reformed by these things / Current KJV be reformed by me by these things
Leviticus 26:40 A.V. KJV (1611)the iniquity of their fathers / Current KJV their iniquity,
and the iniquity of their fathers
Numbers 4:40 A.V. KJV (1611) - houses / Current KJV - house
Numbers 7:55A.V. KJV (1611) charger of an hundred / Current KJV - charger of the weight of an hundred
and thirty shekels
Deutnomy 5:29A.V. KJV (1611) keep my commandments / Current KJV keep all my commandments
Joshua 3:11 A.V. KJV (1611) covenant, even the Lord / Current KJV covenant of the Lord
Proverbs 7:21 - A.V. KJV With much fair speech / Current KJV - With her much fair speech
Eccles 2:16 - A.V. KJV shall be forgotten / Current KJV - shall all be forgotten
Sg of Solm 4:6 A.V. KJV mountains / Current KJV mountain
Sg of Solm 5:12 A.V. KJV water / Current KJV waters
Isaiah 34:11 A.V. KJV The cormorant and the bittern / Current KJV But the cormorant and the bittern
Isaiah 49:13 A.V. KJV heaven / Current KJV heavens
Isaiah 49:13 A.V. KJV God / Current KJV the LORD
Isaiah 57:8 A.V. KJV and made a covenant / Current KJV and made thee a covenant
Jeremiah 4:6 A.V. KJV standards / Current KJV standard
Jeremiah 31:14 A.V. KJV be satisfied with goodness / Current KJV be satisfied with my goodness
Jeremiah 31:18 A.V. KJV thou art the Lord my God Current KJV for thou art the Lord my God
Jeremiah 51:12 A.V. KJV watchman / Current KJV watchmen
Jeremiah 51:30 A.V. KJV their / Current KJV her
Ezekiel 6:8 A.V. KJV that he may / Current KJV that ye may
Ezekiel 12:19 A.V. KJV violence of them / Current KJV violence of all them
Ezekiel 24:5 A.V. KJV him /Current KJV them
Ezekiel 24:7 A.V. KJV poured it upon the ground Current KJV poured it not upon the ground
Ezekiel 48:8 A.V. KJV they / Current KJV ye
Daniel 3:15 A.V. KJV the midst of a fiery furnace / Current KJV the midst of a burning fiery furnace
Daniel 12:13 A.V. KJV the lot / Current KJV thy lot
Joel 3:13 A.V. KJV the wickedness / Current KJV their wickedness
Amos 8:3 A.V. KJV Temples / Current KJV temple
Zechariah 7:7 A.V. KJV of the plain / Current KJV and the plain
Malachi 3:4 A.V. KJV offerings / Current KJV offering
Matthew 12:23 A.V. KJV Is this the son of David? Current KJV Is not this the son of David?
Matthew 14:9 A.V. KJV othes / Current KJV oath's
Matthew 16:16 A.V. KJV Thou art Christ Current KJV Thou art the Christ
Mark 6:26 A.V. KJV othes Current KJV oath's
John 11:3 A.V. KJV sister Current KJV sisters
John 12:22 A.V. KJV told Current KJV tell
John 15:20 A.V. KJV the Lord Current KJV his Lord
Acts 5:34 A.V. KJV a doctor of law / Current KJV a doctor of the law
Romans 14:10 A.V. KJV we shall all stand / Current KJV for we shall all stand
1 Corinth 10:28 A.V. KJV The earth is the Lords / Current KJV for the earth is the Lord's
1 Corinth 12:28A.V. KJV helps in governments / Current KJV helps, governments
1 Corinth 15:6 A.V. KJV And Current KJV After
Philippians 4:6 A.V. KJV request Current KJV requests
2 Thessa 2:14 A.V. KJV the Lord Jesus Christ Current KJV our Lord Jesus Christ
1 Timothy 1:4 A.V. KJV rather than edifying / Current KJV rather than godly edifying
2 Timothy 4:8 A.V. KJV unto them also / Current KJV unto all them also
Hebrews 3:10 A.V. KJV hearts / Current KJV heart
Hebrews 12:1 A.V. KJV run with patience unto the race / Current KJV run with patience the race
1 John 5:12 A.V. KJV he that hath not the Son, hath not life. / Current KJV he that hath not the Son of God
hath not life.
Revelation 13:6 A.V. KJV dwelt / Current KJV dwell
2 Chron 33:19 A.V. KJV [Cambridge KJV Editions] sin / Current KJV [Oxford KJV Editions]
sins
Jeremiah 34:16 A.V. KJV / whom ye Current KJV whom he
(with the above evidence) A QUESTION for "KJV-ONLYites" —
Since the revisions of the KJV from 1613-1850 made (in addition to changes in punctuation, capitalization, and spelling) many hundreds of changes in words, word order, possessives, singulars for plurals, articles, pronouns, conjunctions, prepositions, entire phrases, and the addition and deletion of words — would you say the KJV was "verbally inerrant" in 1611... or 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, or 1850?
Is it from GOD or MAN ?? — the theory that the KJV is the "ONLY", ...or "BEST", ...or "PERFECT" translation of the original "verbally inerrant" inspired Hebrew & Greek words...
IS the KJV used today a 1611 A.V. ?
"More than 400 errors in the first edition of the King James Bible were corrected in a subsequent edition two years later." [NEIL LIGHTFOOT, How We Got the Bible pg. 59]
There are a lot more changes made to the Bible than the Book of Mormon. Most of the changes done over the years were spelling and grammer, after all Prophets are not perfect. The only man ever to be perfect was Jesus Christ.
A.V. KJV (1611) - 1 Corinthians 12:28 - And God hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondarily Prophets, thirdly Teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helpes in gouernmets, diuersities of tongues.
Current KJV (1850) - 1 Corinthians 12:28 - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
A strange and new doctrine concerning the King James Bible is held by some today. It is said that the KJV is an absolutely "infallible" translation that "perfectly preserves the word of God in English" from 1611 to the present. In this insistence on absolute perfection for "every word" of the translation, it is common to hear some argue that the KJV has not undergone any significant "revision or change" since 1611. Those of us who refuse to "bow the knee" to such claims, contending for the inerrancy of the original texts ONLY (Hebrew & Greek words), are viciously denounced as "Bible correctors" and "apostates without final authority!"
But when the real question is raised about the many changes that have occurred in the editions of the KJV since its initial publication in 1611, the "KJV-innerrantist" attacks and accuses his "opponent" of propagating "myth". Favorite cliches are repeated about "the myths of revision". One of the most popular objections stated by KJV-ONLYites is, "Those were all mere changes in spelling and typesetting. None of the words themselves were actually changed". Actually, that's NOT True!
Rather than taking the word of brethren on either "side" of the issue, we have investigated the authoritative sources on the alleged "changes" firsthand. In 1884, Dr. F. H. A. Scrivener, perhaps the greatest authority on the history of the "Authorized Version" (1611 KJV), aptly said concerning these changes the following —
"Most readers will be aware that numberless and not inconsiderable departures from the original or standard edition of the Authorized Translation as published in 1611, are to be found in the modern [KJV] Bibles which issue from the press by thousands every year. Some of these differences must be imputed to oversight and negligence, from which no work of man can be entirely free; but much the greater part of them are deliberate changes, introduced silently and without authority by men whose very names are often unknown."
Lets go on. There were many doctrine changes in the Tradition Christian faith following the killings of the Prophets of old. The gospel was once on the earth at one time but do to all the man-made changes made to the many faiths the Apostasy accured. Lets look at what happened
1. Jesus Christ established an earthly organization which he called his Church, and which was also referred to as "the faith once delivered to the Saints".
A. Matt 16:18 "upon this rock I will build my church".
B. Acts 2:47 "the Lord added to the church daily"
C. Acts 13:1 "there were in the church... prophets and teachers"
D. Acts 15:4 "they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders"
E. Eph. 2:20 "built upon a foundation of apostles and prophets"
2. The Bible says that before the Second Coming of Christ, there would be an apostacy or falling away not only of individuals or groups from the true church of Jesus Christ, but that there would be an apostacy of the Church, to the point where it would no longer be recognizable as His organization, and He would no longer recognize its authority to act for Him.
A. Isa. 24:5 "they have changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant..."
B. Amos 8:11 "a famine ... of hearing the words of the Lord: ... they shall wander from sea to sea ... and shall not find it"
C. Acts 20:29 "shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock"
D. 2 Thes. 2:3 " (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
E. 2 Tim. 3:5 "Having the form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
F. Rev. 2:2 "them which say they are apostles, and are not"
3. The Bible also states that before the Second Coming there would be a restoration of the Church that Jesus organized. (see the end of this paper)
4. History shows that the Great Apostacy did indeed take place:
Year (A.D.) Steps of the Apostacy
70 Jerusalem (Headquarters of the New Testament church) is destroyed.
-- Other cities such as Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Corinth, and Rome began emerging as Christian centers.
75 (approx) Death of the last of the original Twelve Apostles.
(John -- exiled to Patmos, then disappeared from history after about 95 AD)
-- With no more general Church authorities (Apostles and the Seventy) , local authorities (Bishops) assumed leadership, but without jurisdiction to make decisions for the entire Church.
LOSS OF DIVINE AUTHORITY AND REVELATION FROM GOD TO THE CHURCH
-- doctrine developed re: a "deposit of faith" which could no longer be added to, consisting of the writings of the Apostles and earliest Church Fathers.
170 (approx) Irenaeus developed theory that Bishops (at least those ordained directly by the Apostles) could justly claim to be equal in authority with the Apostles. He also theorized that churches with Apostolic foundation had "pre-eminent authority" over other churches.
190 Tertullian (lawyer-turned-theologian) introduced the concept of the Godhead as a "corporation" (Latin personae), and coined the word "trinity". He also advocated a professional clergy.
-- doctrine of baptism for the dead is lost.
-- baptism of little children introduced.
215 --doctrine of pre-existence lost.
"Origin" (Bishop of Alexandria) was the last to teach it.
247 Cyprian ("elected" Bishop of Carthage).
-- expanded Irenaeus's theory to say that all Bishops were successors to the Apostolic authority.
-- established doctrine that a council of Bishops could speak for the entire Church.
200 (approx) -- use of crucifix & cross as a Christian symbol first began.
-- artificial distinction created between laity and the "professional" clergy
-- use of ceremonial robes for clergy
311 Edict of Toleration (of Christians) issued by Galerius
313-324 Several Edicts by Constantine established Christianity as the favored State Religion of the Roman Empire. Constantine assumed the role of Pontifex Maximus or "chief priest" over the entire Roman Christian church.
313 "Donatists" elect their own bishops in North Africa, and set up a separate Christian church which lasted until the Moslem conquest in the seventh century.
316 Council of Arles called by Constantine to settle Donatist Schism. Precedent set of the emperor (not Church authority) being called upon to settle Church matters.
318 celibacy for the clergy and monasticism introduced
323 (approx) Arius (a young priest in Alexandria) taught that Jesus was not equally God with the Father, since he was "begotten" at some point in time and therefore was not co-eternal with the Father.
325 Council of Nicea called by Constantine to settle the problem of the Arian "heresy". After two months of heated debate and deliberation by 318 bishops (mostly representing the Eastern church), a compromise concept called the Nicene Creed was formulated to "define" the Christian Godhead as the "Trinity".
Note: The council was not presided over by the Bishop of Rome (who was not even present), nor indeed any Bishop, but by the Emperor Constantine. It was he (an unbaptized pagan) whose power most directly influenced the formulation of the Creed and directed the outcome of the Council.
325+ The influence of Greek philosophy which had crept into Christian thinking continued to alter doctrines relating to the nature of God, and man's relationship to Diety. (This was sometimes called Christian Neo-Platonism)
Some of the apostate doctrines that came out of this thinking were that:
-- God was an ethereal, immaterial being who filled all space but who lived outside time and space. (Belief in an anthropomorphic God --prevalent until this time-- was lost.)
-- Mortal, physical mankind could have no family relationship with such a God.
Man is a mere created creature, like the animals.
4th Century
-- confession of sins to priests, and
-- penance obligations assigned for sin
-- Purgatory doctrine introduced (Augustine)
326+ Rise of "Caesaro-Papism", or support and dominance of the church by the Roman state.
396 Augustine selected as a bishop. Trained as a lawyer and philosopher, he was known as the "Christian Plato". He greatly influenced Christian thought and introduced a number of apostate doctrines. Chief among these were:
-- salvation by faith alone, without works
-- original sin (defined as concupiscence or sexual lust)
-- infant baptism
-- predestination of salvation (which denies free agency)
(Note: these doctrines were refined later by John Calvin and others.)
440-461 Title of "Pope" first used by Leo, Bishop of Rome (Note: "papa" or "pope" as well as "Vicar of Christ" were used by many bishops in different cities until the 6th century when it began to be reserved for the Bishop of Rome.
450 Leo the Great begins building the Medieval Papacy into a political power.
(NOTE: None of the early Church Fathers who shaped the doctrine of the church were bishops of Rome.)
590 Pope Gregory the Great established the Papal Kingdom (Vatican)
-- paganism is mixed with Christianity in rituals, holidays, etc.
Example: December 25th, which was fixed as day to celebrate birth of
Jesus, is actually the nativity date of the pagan god Mithras.
700 Adoration of statues began ("Iconoclastic Movement")
-- also veneration of relics
850 Documents forged by some church leaders were alleged to be a handbook for church government put forth by "Pope" Sylvester in the 3rd century, supposedly giving support to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome over other bishops. Called the "Forged Decretals", they were acknowledged as forgeries in 1440 by the Roman Catholic church, but by then the Roman Papacy was well established. Thus the claim by some that the Roman Catholic Church was "built on lies and forgeries".
850-962 112 years in which the Popes were chosen not by the Church, but by the Roman or German kings and emperors.
-- doctrine established of a "treasury of merit", of excess good deeds by apostles and saints, etc. This merit could be dispensed to forgive or "absolve" the sins of other people, who could receive a "dispensation" under authority of the Pope. This led to the doctrine of "indulgences", wherein people could purchase forgiveness for sin from the church.
1044 Pope Benedict IX (12 years old when elected Pope) was such a farce that he was forced to resign the Papacy.
1054 The "Great Schism", when the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic branches of the Christian church excommunicated each other, formalizing a division that had actually been existence for centuries.
1059 Pope Nicholas II institutes the College of Cardinals in an attempt to regain for the Church the control of the Papacy, and wrest it away from the political leaders of the state.
1198 - 1216 Pope Innocent III acts as dictator, dominating the heads of state in England and Europe. (This was the reverse of "Caesaro-Papism" where the State ruled the Church.)
l2th Century -- more apostate false doctrines were introduced:
-- intercession of (& praying to) Mary and the saints
-- use of Rosary
-- use of crucifix
-- incense burning
-- ceremonial altars
1215 doctrine of Transubstantiation promulgated by Pope Innocent III as official dogma of the church. (it had been debated since the second century)
1265 Thomas Aquinas develops an explanation for the Transubstantion doctrine.
1378 Conciliarism, and the 2nd Great Schism
3 Popes elected simultaneously in Rome & Pisa, Italy, & Avignon, France.
They excommunicated each other, and confusion reigned for over 70 years (quite a break in the "unbroken succession"?) until 1449 when Pope Nicholas V of Rome outlived his competition.
(Where would the headquarters of the Church be if one of the others had lived longer?)
l5th Century -- "simony" introduced (purchase of priestly office with money)
-- reading the Bible is forbidden to the laity, at times under penalty of death.
1545 Council of Trent: met to try to reform the Catholic church's errors.
Later doctrines:
-- Papal infallibility
-- Papal decrees added to Bible and tradition as "basis of faith and doctrine"
-- Perpetual virginity and assumption of Mary
-- Prohibition against eating meat on Fridays
(first imposed, then rescinded in the 1960's, without any revelation from God
for either doctrinal change)
THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION: SOME HITS AND SOME MISSES
1160 Peter Waldo of Lyons translated Bible into common tongue and distributed it. He founded the Waldensians, called the "first Protestants".
1340 John Wycliff translates Bible into English
John Huss is executed for spreading Wycliff's work to Bohemia.
1360 Gerhard Groot started Bible studies in the Netherlands
1517 Martin Luther tacked 95 theses on Wittenburg church door, protesting sale of indulgences.
-- Luther translated Bible into German.
-- tried to reform Catholic church from within, at first.
His false doctrines were:
-- "sola fe", or salvation by faith alone (based on his interpretation of Rom. 1:17)
-- he wanted to delete the book of James from the Canon because it disagreed with his
"sola fe" doctrine.
-- the "priesthood of believers", which stated that all believers had priesthood authority, but individuals didn't have enough to act for God. However when a congregation delegated all their individual "priesthood" to their pastor, he then had enough to perform ordinances, etc.
1521 King Henry VIII of England writes a rebuttal to Luther, thus earning himself the title (from the Pope) of "Defender of the Faith".
1529 A meeting between Luther and Swiss reformer Zwingli failed to reach unity.
Protestant faiths have diverged from one another ever since.
1534 The same Henry VIII defied Rome: he wanted to divorce his wife but the Pope said no
1535 Henry declared himself head of the English Church, and separated it from Roman Catholicism into the Church of England (Episcopal Church)
1541 John Calvin developed doctrines from his study of the Bible that profoundly influenced the Presbyterian, Congregational and Baptist faiths, among others.
His "five points of Calvinism" (known by the acronym TULIP) are;
1. Total depravity of man. (Man is incapable of good by himself.)
2. Unconditional Election (God chooses or "elects" those who will be saved.)
3. Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the Church, not for everyone.)
4. Irresistible Grace (Those predestined to salvation cannot resist God's "election".)
5. Perseverance of the Saints ("Once saved, always saved". You can't lose your salvation.)
TIME FOR THE RESTORATION
1820 Joseph Smith prays and asks "Which church to join?". In a daylight vision he is visited by Jesus Christ who tells him to "join none of them", that they are all wrong. He is told that if he obeys God, he will be chosen to bring about the Restoration of New Testament Christianity in its pure form in these latter days.
After several years and a number of visits by heavenly messengers, he is ordained to the Apostolic Priesthood by the resurrected Peter, James, and John, and given authority to organize the Church of Jesus Christ.... of Latter-day Saints.
The Bible's Restoration Prophecies are fulfilled:
A. Acts 3:21 "(the 2nd Coming will not occur until) the times of restitution of all things"
B. Daniel 2:44 "(in the last days) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed"
C. Rev. 14:6 "(in those days) I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel..."
D. Isa. 29:14 "I will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder..."
E. Isa. 2:2 "the Lord's house shall be established in the tops of the mountains."
THE "FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS" IS RESTORED!
It looks to me that there are a lot more changes made to the Traditional Christian doctrine than there is was to the Mormon doctrine. So what if miner grammer and spelling was corrected over time, there were a lot more mistakes made in the bible. God inspires our Prophets with his message he doesn't go word to word telling his messenger that he spelled a word incorrectly or used incorrect grammer. Joseph Smith did not have much school. He had only completed his third year education. It would have been difficult for a learned man to write the Book of Mormon without God's help.
