AboutMichael Kelley Expertise For a different viewpoint on Mormonism for your questions, try me. I am a staunch believer in the Book of Mormon and belong to another church (the Church of Christ)that is set up identically to the Biblical church. If there are things about traditional Mormonism that trouble you or you have questions about, just ask and you might find the answers from the Book of Mormon to be quite surprising. I have been studying the scriptures diligently for 16 years under the school of hard knocks... I may not have all of the answers but will sure go find them if I don`t. I`m strongest on Biblical and Book of Mormon doctrines, and am also somewhat familiar with Mormon history and archaeology.
Question QUESTION: Michael - as you are an ex-LDS member, what's your perspective on JW Smith, B. Young, etc. Tools of Satan? Secondly, why is it that LDS'ers are so adamant to defend their beliefs, yet in their defense they offer, they typically end up making an argument against LDS and they don't even realize it? Are they that blinded by the LDS cult? In your experience, what's the best way to help convert them to True Evangelical, BIBLE based Christianity. Thanks
JG
ANSWER: Hi John,
I will be happy to answer your questions. Yes, I am ex-LDS however I belong to the Church of Christ that believes in the Bible and Book of Mormon. You will find my answers interesting. I will reply to each question below in **, Mike
You sent: Michael - as you are an ex-LDS member, what's your perspective on JW Smith, B. Young, etc. Tools of Satan?
**Mike replies: I believe Joseph Smith was INITIALLY a sincere humble seeker of truth, and as God would with anybody of that attitude, was led by God and even used by God for a special work. That work being to translate the Book of Mormon (BoM) and to restore the Church of Christ (as it was originally named). This Smith did indeed do, with only one glaring blunder where he allowed 116 pages of the original manuscript to be lost due to a direct disobedience to God's specific commandments. Yet Smith repented, and God forgave him and he was allowed to finish the translation and the church was blessed with many gifts of the Spirit as described in the Bible. Unfortunately the people looked up to Smith as a "Moses", and being a novice became lifted up in pride and began yielding to the persuasions of men, rather than God, or the Bible and BoM, and began falling away. I have difficulty judging whether he completely apostatized, or only backslid in degrees. I believe Smith was a truly called prophet of God, but through personal apostasy foresook that calling. There are a few examples in the Old Testament of this being possible.
I know prominent figures in the Bible backslid such as Moses who because of his error was denied entrance into the promised land. Others like Peter backslid and denied Christ thrice even after promising strongly he would not.... yet he did, and later repented and was forgiven. I see Smith as a sort of Peter in the regard. However Smiths backslidings and pride led the church into disfavor with God, and even being punished by persecution (even by Bible believers... in this land of religous freedom no less). Ultimately this led to Smith's untimely death by the Christian mobs who hated anything to do with Mormonism. Once Smith died, the church split into many factions (some 100 exist today) with the Utah LDS faction being by far the largest, and the faction I ended up joining, the Church of Christ, the 2nd or 3rd largest.
As for Brigham Young... absolutely he was a tool of Satan. He (not Smith) instituted polygamy, racism, and other abominable practices that are utterly after the manner of an evil cult. The BoM itself bitterly condemns polygamy terming it a whoredom and abomination before God, no exceptions, no excuses. The BoM also NOT ONCE ever teaches many LDS doctrines such as Baptism for the Dead, Celestial Marriage, Man becoming a God, Jesus having many Wives, A Changing God, the 1st Presidency and many other doctrines. Not only are these things utterly absent from the BoM, the BoM teaches AGAINST these concepts, often harshly so.
You sent: Secondly, why is it that LDS'ers are so adamant to defend their beliefs, yet in their defense they offer, they typically end up making an argument against LDS and they don't even realize it?
**Mike: LOL! Yes, I have seen that many times. Even when I confound them with their own BoM (or the Bible)... they DO NOT CARE... and go on chanting their mantras about "Our prophet is a true prophet of God" and blah blah blah. Logic, reason, or even the very teachings and examples of Christ Himself from either Bible or BoM mean nothing to them.
You sent: Are they that blinded by the LDS cult?
**Mike: Yes! In both the Bible and BoM there are these passages:
2 Nephi 4:34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
**Mike adds: Hmmm.... salt land. What is the cursing that those who put their trust in the arm of flesh? Blindness. There is something wrong, something spiritually evil that occurs when you set aside your trust in God and HIS teachings, and trust in a man, whether he has the title of prophet, president, or pope... that man becomes your God, and this offends God because you are in essence worshipping an idol. The people made Joseph Smith an idol and he couldn't handle it. It was partly his fault for letting them do it, and it was partly the church's fault. This led to his downfall and the rise of another even more wicked, Young. Young's evil practices has done more damage to the BoM than all of the enemies combined. It is not uncommon for apostates to not even follow their own books.
You sent: In your experience, what's the best way to help convert them to True Evangelical, BIBLE based Christianity. Thanks
**Mike K: I have debated with LDS folks for over 15 years, sometimes on discussion groups with over 100 members. I have had luck with hardly any. Maybe a handful and those pretty much have already figure it out and were already leaving the Utah faction anyway. As for converting TBMs (True Believing Mormons)... Good Luck! The best tool I have found is confounding them with their own Book of Mormon! And even THAT does not work. They slide it under their seats and instead place all trust in their "Doctrine and Covenants" or the teachings of their current prophets. If their current prophet told them to do the most ridiculous and outrageous things... they would do it. As for Bible based Christianity... that is EXACTLY what the BoM also teaches... doctrine for doctrine. Tragically the terribly examples of Brigham Young and the Utah faction have turned millions away from this beautiful work. The ancient prophet Mormon is probably rolling in his grave over what the LDS have done in his name. The LDS are terrible examples of what a Mormon or Christian really is. The ancient prophet named Mormon practiced simple Biblical Christianity... nothing more, nothing less. The Church of Christ is much more similar to a Baptist church than the LDS are. There are even a few Baptists or Evangelicals who are accepting the BoM because they actually studied it for themselves and found it teaches the same doctrines as the Bible.
Sorry for being long, I've covered only the tip of the iceburg. Feel free to ask more questions or for scriptural proof if you like. I like to always say, don't trust what I say, trust the teachings and examples of Christ.
God Bless,
Mike
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Mike - thanks so much for your reply. I was LOL at some of your comments as well! As for Smith backsliding, I'd be interested in which verses in the Bible you'd point to where the Bible supports a true prophet of God backsliding to the point where their prophesies were not true and yet still confirms them as true prophets of God.
The one area I do want to follow up with you on is the BoM specifically, since you stated that you continue to hold that on par with the Bible.
You've probably heard this before, (I've presented this to many LDS'ers and typically hear the same shallow dance around it which ends up holding no water at all), but let me challenge you on a few things if you don't mind about BoM.
My assumptions going in are:
1 - you belive the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant word of God that contains the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
2 - you believe in the trinity of one God, revealed in 3 distinct persons (Father Son Holy Spirit)
3 - you believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus plus NOTHING. No amount of works, good deeds, etc. will earn us forgiveness of sins and bring us salvation. Only through his grace through our faith in Him. Eph 2:8-9.
Okay, here we go:
1 - There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever supporting the claims made in the BoM, the great battle, the golden plates, etc. in fact there are loads of factual evidence that disproves the legitimacy of the BoM. On the contrary the original texts of the Bible are indeed present, readable, study-able, etc., along with mounds of arch. evidence to support the Bible. It really does stand the test.
2 - the BoM since it was written has abounded in textual errors, factual errors and provable plagiarism. Jesus born in Jerusalem, not Bethlehem (i've already heard many weak excuses and dances on this one), and on and on. Now, I stipulate that there have been translational errors found in the KJV Bible, but they have been limited to grammatical and punctuation type errors. No errors in fact or doctrine that required changing. (unlike LDS) Interestingly enough these same grammar, etc. errors in KJV show up exactly in the BoM.
3 - Smith used a seer stone to interpret the supposed plates. This is strictly taught against in the Bible as it represents the occult. This is damning evidence against the BoM being from God. No where in the Bible did any of the Divine inspiration come via a seer stone, rather the Holy Spirit. Its documented that Smith partook in the occult quite regularly in fact.
I'll stop there. You know, I've read so much about LDS in my passion for converting them to evangelical Christianity and no matter to which LDS apologist I turn to they try to defend their faith (I recently read www.jefflindsay.com, what crock) and end up sounding like whiny little kids most of the time, and just as we both LOL'd about, end up doing more harm than good with their plausiblities, and contrived logic.
Could Smith have been a prophet? Indeed, but, certainly not of God.
Anyway, I look forward to our dialogue Mike.
John
Answer Hi John,
I will answer each of your questions below in **, Mike
You sent: QUESTION: Mike - thanks so much for your reply. I was LOL at some of your comments as well! As for Smith backsliding, I'd be interested in which verses in the Bible you'd point to where the Bible supports a true prophet of God backsliding to the point where their prophesies were not true and yet still confirms them as true prophets of God.
**Mike Replies: Yes, there are a few examples...
1 Chr 17:2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
**Mike adds: The above showed how Nathan, a true prophet, mis-spoke for God in telling David to build a temple, and God required him to correct his mistake. It was not God's will for David to build a temple, rather for Solomon.
1 Kings 13:23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
**Mike adds: This passage describes a true prophet who willfully disobeyed the Lord and a lion slew him. Finally there is an example of Balaam who was rebuked by a dumb ass yet had spoken true prophecies for the Lord, yet sold out Israel for bribes. Paul mentions Balaam as someone worthless.
You sent: The one area I do want to follow up with you on is the BoM specifically, since you stated that you continue to hold that on par with the Bible.
You've probably heard this before, (I've presented this to many LDS'ers and typically hear the same shallow dance around it which ends up holding no water at all), but let me challenge you on a few things if you don't mind about BoM.
My assumptions going in are:
1 - you belive the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant word of God that contains the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
**Mike replies: Yes LOL, I have heard the same many times, most of the time my answers side with the Evangelicals, sometimes the LDS-ers as you call them. I side with the truth wherever it leads me. I believe the Bible contains the full "Good News" Gospel message of Christ. However I do not believe it, or the BoM, is "inerrant" or without flaw. In its original Aramaic or Hebrew it may indeed have been without flaw, but due to translational errors, errors of scribes and unknown causes (Catholic politics)... errors are inevitably introduced. Now the GOSPEL message still shines through... as the message is repeated over and over... but there are imperfections. For example... the event I just quoted about Nathan and David, it is repeated in many books, but reads differently...
1 Chr 17:4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
2 Sam 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
**Mike adds: As you can see... the same event is covered but worded differently... one is a direct commandment for David to not build a house, another is a question. The testimonies of Christ and His ministry varies quite a bit between the 4 Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John... but the TRUTH is still discernable. There are also examples such as when Paul speaks about virgins that he is offering his opinion... not "Thus saith the Lord" revelation. While all of the Gospel message of Christ is inerrant... the Bible itself is not... because it has passed through the hands of men who introduced error. The Bible, like the BoM, is a tool of God, not God incarnate.
2 - you believe in the trinity of one God, revealed in 3 distinct persons (Father Son Holy Spirit)
**Mike: Yes, though the word "trinity" does not exist in either Bible or BoM, the teaching strongly exists in both books. The LDS believe in a confusion of gods and contradictions on that topic.
3 Nephi 11:27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
3 - you believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus plus NOTHING. No amount of works, good deeds, etc. will earn us forgiveness of sins and bring us salvation. Only through his grace through our faith in Him. Eph 2:8-9.
**Mike: No, I side with the LDSers on this. The Bible teaches:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
**Mike adds: However this does not negate the absolute necessity for grace... only that grace is conditional upon our accepting Christ AND His commandments. The BoM also teaches grace...
2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
**Mike adds: The LDS rely more on works for salvation, the Evangelicals on grace... the scriptures mandate BOTH.
You sent: Okay, here we go:
1 - There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever supporting the claims made in the BoM, the great battle, the golden plates, etc. in fact there are loads of factual evidence that disproves the legitimacy of the BoM. On the contrary the original texts of the Bible are indeed present, readable, study-able, etc., along with mounds of arch. evidence to support the Bible. It really does stand the test.
**Mike: Please don't take this personally, but that is pure hogwash. I have 100s of photos from Yucatan and other locations in the Americas that showed a race that believed in a bearded white God, who had advanced building skills, knew metals, the wheel, cement,had barley etc which is mentioned in the BoM but the antis say does not exist. The "Mound Builders" in Ohio left ruins that match the BoM accounts of their battles. Your information is either way outdated, or deliberately inaccurate. We've even taken photos of the 10 commandments written in 600 BC Hebrew found in the Los Lunas, New Mexico petraglyphs, and had it authenticated by the Hebrew University in Israel... of course the Smithsonian Institute in the US would probably pooh pooh it... as well as anything that would help prove God exists. The BoM plates were taken away from Smith so that they would not be destroyed by the Christian mobs as they surely would have been. There is still a significant portion of the plates that remained sealed and have yet to be translated, therefore they needed to be preserved from the mobs, and even perhaps from Smith himself.
2 - the BoM since it was written has abounded in textual errors, factual errors and provable plagiarism. Jesus born in Jerusalem, not Bethlehem (i've already heard many weak excuses and dances on this one), and on and on. Now, I stipulate that there have been translational errors found in the KJV Bible, but they have been limited to grammatical and punctuation type errors. No errors in fact or doctrine that required changing. (unlike LDS) Interestingly enough these same grammar, etc. errors in KJV show up exactly in the BoM.
**Mike: Those grammatical errors are actually evidences for both the Bible and BoM... what is poor English grammar is excellent Hebrew grammar. The BoM, like Hebrew, came with no punctuation or chapter and versing... all of that was interjected by the BoM scribes... Oliver Cowdery and perhaps others later. The LDS changed changed their versing later so their BoM does not match ours. If people reversed the Bible it would not change it's meaning or teachings at all... would you not agree? As for plagiarisms I strongly disagree. There are many quotes from Isaiah, and Nephi had the records of Isaiah so why would it be impossible to quote them verbatum... even then there are 100s of translational differences. What did it for me was a side by side comparison of the two Sermons on the Mount... many key differences exist that highlight the cultural differences between the Jews and the Nephites at the time of Christ. There is no way Smith could have been smart enough to avoid the many pitfalls if he were merely copying the Bible. The claim actually ended up being an evidence of the BoM's authenticity once I studied it out.
3 - Smith used a seer stone to interpret the supposed plates. This is strictly taught against in the Bible as it represents the occult. This is damning evidence against the BoM being from God. No where in the Bible did any of the Divine inspiration come via a seer stone, rather the Holy Spirit. Its documented that Smith partook in the occult quite regularly in fact.
**Mike: The Bible mentions many seers, who were men of God. Of course Satan has his counterfits... and can show himself as an angel of light. However we cannot dismiss the valid gifts of God just because someone has false manifestations. Samual used the Urim to LOOK into for revelation, and Saul tried to after he was rejected by the Lord and received nothing... clearly looking into SOMETHING was a valid exercise of faith. Do Evangelicals believe in the possibility of Seers at all? Do they hate the LDS so much that they would dismiss valid points in their own Bibles?
1 Sam 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
**Mike adds: Some of the ammo antis get against this event came from Smith himself where his account of the event varied over time. One big problem was that Smith was COMMANDED in a direct revelation to PRETEND to no other gift than to translate the BoM because he would be given NO other gift. IMMEDIATELY after the translation was completed an angel took away the plates AND THE URIM. However as I explained before, Smith did not like the demotion from the lofty perch of Moses, and began to PRETEND gifts and hence comes these other varying testimonies which added confusion. BTW, the LDS changed that revelation in the D&C so that he could have other gifts.... more of their changing God baloney.
You sent: I'll stop there. You know, I've read so much about LDS in my passion for converting them to evangelical Christianity and no matter to which LDS apologist I turn to they try to defend their faith (I recently read www.jefflindsay.com, what crock) and end up sounding like whiny little kids most of the time, and just as we both LOL'd about, end up doing more harm than good with their plausiblities, and contrived logic.
**Mike: Most of them end up calling me names... apostate, buttbuddy (???), muderer, a Korihor (a BoM apostate) and other choice names. I recently left one of their discussion boards because of the constant contention and unchristian conduct. I have ran into MANY LDS and Evangelicals who are fine and nice... until you back them into a corner and prove them wrong... then they get very nasty indeed. Some of them so bad so I wondered if I should keep a gun near my bed... what is it that turns a decent Christian into foaming in the mouth crazy??
You sent: Could Smith have been a prophet? Indeed, but, certainly not of God.
**Mike: If I thought for one minute Smith actually authored the BoM I would burn it. Ironically the BoM destroys the LDS religion moreso than the Bible does (there are SOME places in the Bible that SEEM to advocate polygamy). I got one for you... how could Judas Iscariot have ever been a true Apostle? The Bible mentions all the apostles going forth and teaching the truth, healing the sick, raising the dead. Remember Satan did not enter Judas up until the time of the last supper. While I don't like it anymore than you do, men of God can and have fallen. Shucks how many prominent Evangelical leaders have fallen from grace and been smeared by the media? If Evangelicals hold the same standard to their leaders as they do Smith they would have a big problem!
Anyway, I look forward to our dialogue Mike.
John
**Mike: I enjoy it too... so long as it remains civil and we both seek the truth. Feel free to write me directly at technomn@msn.com if you like... All Experts is a bit clunky. You will find my religion is far closer to yours than the LDS... the LDS have done to the BoM what the Catholics have done for the Bible if you know what I mean.
