AboutMichael Kelley Expertise For a different viewpoint on Mormonism for your questions, try me. I am a staunch believer in the Book of Mormon and belong to another church (the Church of Christ)that is set up identically to the Biblical church. If there are things about traditional Mormonism that trouble you or you have questions about, just ask and you might find the answers from the Book of Mormon to be quite surprising. I have been studying the scriptures diligently for 16 years under the school of hard knocks... I may not have all of the answers but will sure go find them if I don`t. I`m strongest on Biblical and Book of Mormon doctrines, and am also somewhat familiar with Mormon history and archaeology.
Question Dar Michael, forgive me if I offended you in anyway.
Honestly I didnt think i was creating "impossible stipulations" I just want clarification. As I truly want to understand your positon.
You say,
Do I believe the Bible is true... YES, however I am speaking to the fact that the Bible teaches the true Gospel. The Greek word for Gospel literally means "Good News". The message of Christ is clearly taught in the Bible. Saying that, there are imperfections introduced by the weaknesses of men, they forget, they poorly translate, they misunderstand."
Can you point to the imperfections in the Orginal Greek text of the Bible?
If not, how do you know there are any?
You say,
"When you ask certain Evangelicals which version of God is the one true flawless one, the KJV, the NASB, the NIV etc etc they cannot answer you."
I not an evengelical(Im Catholic) but even they know(should know) the Original Greek is the final word.
Though, they may quarrel about which is the best "English translation."
And will you answer my other following questions. So I may understand your position better
You say,
"the original Church of Christ fell into complete apostasy when Rome merged politics into the church in 570AD."
Yes I know that Rome's religious leaders were into politics alot, But how does dealing with politics make a church apostate? As the doctrines were never effected?
You say,
"The Bible prophesies of this 1260 year apostasy which ends in 1830 when Joseph Smith restored the Church."
Can you tell me where the Bible says this?
You say,
At this time(1830) it was also called the Church of Christ and had identical doctrines as the AD 33 Bible Church of Christ.
So why do all Early Christian Writerss 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th century, not speak of any of your distint beliefs? where is any evidence of this, if it is historical?
If your Chruch was the Original Church, why is there no eveidence of their existance? such as in writings. you can read all the early Christian writings at www.earlychristianwriters.com or www.newadvent.org/fathers/
Thanks Michael, I dont think I am "anti" anything for asking quesitons, do you? I want only to understand.
Peace be with you
ps I'll be happy to answer anything about my faith also if you wish.
Jeff Myers OR USA
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Dear Michael,
Thanks for your reply, sorry if it seems like Im asking the same question but I'm trying to get a straight answer. In all Honesty I have found no LDS or your Church of Christ member that will give me an answer on the topic if they believe in the Bible(origianl greek) is to be believed as 100% true. To simplify things perhaps you could choose one of these so i can understand your position better.
1. Yes I believe the bible is true always
2. No, it has mistakes, so I cant trust it always
3. dont know.
You say,
"the original Church of Christ fell into complete apostasy when Rome merged politics into the church in 570AD."
Yes I know that Rome's religious leaders were into politics alot, But how does dealing with politics make a church apostate? As the doctrines were never effected?
You say,
"The Bible prophesies of this 1260 year apostasy which ends in 1830 when Joseph Smith restored the Church."
Can you tell me where the Bible says this?
You say,
At this time(1830) it was also called the Church of Christ and had identical doctrines as the AD 33 Bible Church of Christ.
So why do all Early Christian Writerss 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th century, not speak of any of your distint beliefs? where is any evidence of this, if it is historical?
If your Chruch was the Original Church, why is there no eveidence of their existance? such as in writings. you can read all the early Christian writings at www.earlychristianwriters.com or www.newadvent.org/fathers/
Thanks Michael, tough questions but i seek a sincer answer
Peace be with you
Jeff
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Dear Michael,
Thanks for your response allow me to follow up.
So do you believe in the bible 100% only in the Original Greek?
(that is before it is translated)
And one more question, You said
Your part of the "original Church of Christ"
are you claiming the church you belong to is the same church that Jesus started in Isreal 2000 years ago?
Thanks
Jeff Myers OR USA
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Dear Michael, If Mormans believe that the Bible is "only as true as it is translated correctly"
Then why do you believe in it at all, if you dont know what parts are and are not translated correctly.
This seems like a recipe for disaster.
Jeff OR USA
Answer -
Hi Jeff,
I will be happy to answer your questions, I apologize for taking so long, I've been on the road for 2 weeks. Please note that I am ex-LDS and belong to the original Church of Christ that believes in the Book of Mormon.
Your point is valid... it can be dangerous ground to treat scripture as questionable based on the thought that it might not be translated correctly. Many reject Biblical truths and accept patently false doctrines in the name of this. Really all important doctrines of the Bible are repeated over and over again so there is no excuse to reject these doctrines. I like the saying "Scripture proves scripture" and this holds true for either the Bible or the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon mirrors the same identical doctrines as the Bible teaches. Paul teaches that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established so then we know anything important for us will be repeated and it is.
Nevertheless there are translational errors in the Bible... and even a few mistakes found in the Book of Mormon as well. You may say "What!?" but it is true. After all if the old King James Bible was perfectly translated, why then all of the many other translations available today such as the NIV, Amplified, NASB etc etc. if the original was flawless? If the Bible is flawless which version is the flawless one? I've seen internet wars go on over which version was the best one. It seemed to me that many consider the Bible the embodiment of God Himself and thus God cannot have any flaws, not realizing that the Bible is a tool given to us by God, but that God is far bigger than just the tool.
Case in point, the passage in the Bible about Easter.
Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
Yet we know the Jews did not practice Easter, they did not recognize Christ and Herod was certainly not a Christian and would not practice a Christian holiday whatsoever. It was not until 100s of years later when Rome had pagaized early Christianity that the holiday of Easter (and Christmas) were practiced. Jesus promoted no holidays on his behalf, rather He instituted the Sacrament to remember Him by. Vine's Bible dictionary states that the word was a mistranslation from the original Greek word "Pasha" which meant "Passover". This makes much more sense because the Jews did practice the passover. So where did the word Easter come from? It turns out when Roman Catholocism invaded the European countries they merged with pagan world religions, one of which was called Astarte. In the Old Testament it was called Ashtoreth. This was a Canaanite sensual goddess, and the people basically worshipped this goddess by erecting temples of prostitution. Some of the symbols of this religion were the fertility symbols of the bunny and eggs. The word Easter comes from variations of the same goddess in different lands and languages. The same goddess was also known as Isis, Aphrodites (hence the word aphrodesiac), Diana, Ishtar (pronounced Eastar), Ostre and Easter (hence the word estrogen). Catholics today still worship Astarte in the form of the statue of the virgin Mary.
As you can see, the Bible does have certain mistranlations, or in most other cases, just poorly or awkwardly translated if not mistranslated outright. However all key doctrines such as faith, repentence, charity, baptism, laying of hands, eternal judgment etc. are are repeatedly taught over and over again in plain English so we are without excuse and have no cause to reject the Bible.
On the other hand Utah Mormons not only reject much of the Bible but the Book of Mormon also! They practice many false doctrines such as their past practice of polygamy, the current practices of Celestial Marriage, Baptism for the Dead, the 1st Presidency, a Changing God, etc. etc. that are not only utterly absent from the Book of Mormon but CONDEMNED by it! The very reason why I left the Utah faction is BECAUSE I believe in the Book of Mormon. Really the Book of Mormon helped me believe in the Bible moreso because it teaches the very same doctrines... even in sublte ways that Joseph Smith could not have possibly known about.
I hopes this helps answer your question. Feel free to ask other questions if you like.
God Bless,
Mike
Answer -
Hi Jeff,
I will reply to your message below in **, Mike
You sent: Thanks for your response allow me to follow up.
So do you believe in the bible 100% only in the Original Greek?
(that is before it is translated)
Mike replies: I cannot read or speak Greek so cannot say, however from what limited studies I have done with Greek study Bibles I have found nothing that I have disagreed with. There are a couple of contradictions that I am aware of in the Bible. One is where Moses taught it was OK to divorce for any cause, and Jesus had to refute that teaching and taught instead that Divorce was only allowed in cases of adultery for the innocent party, or remarriage was ok in cases of death of the spouse. The other contradiction is where the Law of Moses taught against multiplying wives, especially for the Kings, yet Samuel seems to show forth God's tacit approval for David's many wives. David and Solomon both had 100s of wives which ultimately led to their downfall, as well as all of Israel. The Book of Mormon plainly states that David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines which thing was an abomination to God... no exceptions, no excuses.
And one more question, You said
Your part of the "original Church of Christ"
are you claiming the church you belong to is the same church that Jesus
started in Isreal 2000 years ago?
Thanks
Jeff Myers OR USA
**Mike: Yes, the original Church of Christ fell into complete apostasy when Rome merged politics into the church in 570AD. The Bible prophesies of this 1260 year apostasy which ends in 1830 when Joseph Smith restored the Church. At this time it was also called the Church of Christ and had identical doctrines as the AD 33 Bible Church of Christ, as well as the Book of Mormon Church of Christ. Unfortunately the people worshipped Joseph Smith which led to pride and folly and the pollution and breaking apart of the early 1830 church. There are some 100 factions today, the LDS Utah faction being by far the largest. I used to be LDS but left them because I believe in the Book of Mormon (and Bible) which in many ways teaches against their doctrines.
I hope this helps answer your questions, feel free to ask others... please be patient as it is very hard for me to email while on the road.
God Bless,
Mike
Answer -
Hi Jeff,
You sent:
1. Yes I believe the bible is true always
2. No, it has mistakes, so I cant trust it always
3. dont know.
**Mike Replies: Well, I do not intend on being wishy washy with my answer, however often antis will try to paint you into a corner by creating questions or mandating then beat you over the head when you do not meet THIER stipulations.
In answer to your question. Do I believe the Bible is true... YES, however I am speaking to the fact that the Bible teaches the true Gospel. The Greek word for Gospel literally means "Good News". The message of Christ is clearly taught in the Bible. Saying that, there are imperfections introduced by the weaknesses of men, they forget, they poorly translate, they misunderstand. The Book of Mormon however teaches that we should not reject the things of God because of the imperfections of men. The Book of Mormon also has imperfections yet it teaches the same good news Gospel as the Bible, not varying on one point.
On the other hand Evangelicals look at the Bible as the embodiment of God Himself, to them the Bible IS God, thus cannot have any flaws, else God has flaws. Many even believe today God does not speak to us and that the Bible is the only access to God's will, yet the same Bible teaches that there is not even a shadow of variableness with God, thus if He speaks to men in days of old, He would speak to men today... if they have true faith. When you ask certain Evangelicals which version of God is the one true flawless one, the KJV, the NASB, the NIV etc etc they cannot answer you.
I'm not sure if that is your line of thinking, or if you feel Utah Mormons reject the Bible in large extent (which they do) because of the flaws of the Bible. I do not. The Utah folks also reject much of the Book of Mormon as they blindly follow those whom they call their prophets. Really the Book of Mormon has helped me believe in the Bible moreso... in ways that would take too much time to explain right now. The Book of Mormon itself states that it was not intended to usurp or replace the Bible, but rather stand as a second witness that Jesus is the Christ, the One True Son of God.
Help?
Mike
Answer Hi Jeff,
I will reply to your message below in **, Mike
You sent: Dar Michael, forgive me if I offended you in anyway.
Honestly I didnt think i was creating "impossible stipulations" I just
want clarification. As I truly want to understand your positon.
**Mike replies: My apologies, I've had numerous Evangelicals approach me about that subject many times and their intent was not really for the intent of understanding my position but rather trying to make me an "offendor for a word". I'm glad you are a sincere seeker for truth.
Can you point to the imperfections in the Orginal Greek text of the Bible?
If not, how do you know there are any?
**Mike: The only outright contradictions that I am aware of are the cases that I already quoted where Moses taught Divorce for any cause which Jesus had to refute and the question of polygamy being acceptable to God in the cases of David and Solomon. Since these cases are well established history and Jesus plainly taught against the Law of Moses concerning Divorce for any cause I cannot imagine these being mistranslations, the Greek surely would read the same. Also please note that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was translated from Aramaic. I do have a Lamsa version Bible which does seem to correct a few minor errors such as the statement "it is easier for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle" now reads "it is easier to pass a rope through an eye of a needle". Another Lamsa correction is when Jesus dies on the cross it is written that He said "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me", the Lamsa version says "My God, My God, for this was I born".
You say,
"When you ask certain Evangelicals which version of God is the one true
flawless one, the KJV, the NASB, the NIV etc etc they cannot answer you."
I not an evengelical(Im Catholic) but even they know(should know) the
Original Greek is the final word.
Though, they may quarrel about which is the best "English translation."
**Mike: Right, most of the differences are "straining at gnats". Again, remember the OT was written in Hebrew, the NT was from Aramaic into Greek.
And will you answer my other following questions. So I may understand your
position better
You say,
"the original Church of Christ fell into complete apostasy when Rome
merged politics into the church in 570AD."
Yes I know that Rome's religious leaders were into politics alot, But how
does dealing with politics make a church apostate? As the doctrines were
never effected?
**Mike: There are numerous reasons why, mainly it was the watering down and polluting of the early church in order to make it a political entity. The doctrines are the key thing, and there were numerous changes added. For example baptism... the original Church of Christ baptized only those who were accountable and REPENTED of thier sins first and were then IMMERSED by water. The Greek word for baptism - Baptizmo - means literally "to be buried", Jesus was immersed by John as the example. Some today sprinkle infants which there are no scriptural examples of such, some even suppose a child that dies without baptism would go to hell under the sin of Adam. The OT teaches animal sacrifices for those who sin in their ignorance. The Book of Mormon strongly teaches baptism is only required for the accountable and those who suppose God would send an infant to hell deny the justice and mercy of Christ and are in danger of hell themselves. Those who are not "buried" by immersion are not taking part in the death and ressurrection of Christ. Paul repeatedly teaches this:
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
You say,
"The Bible prophesies of this 1260 year apostasy which ends in 1830 when
Joseph Smith restored the Church."
Can you tell me where the Bible says this?
Mike replies: This can be lengthy. In short:
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Mike adds: Each of these three verses allude to 1260 days. A time in prophetic language is refering to 1 year, thus 1 + 2 + 1/2 year equals 3 1/2 years. The Jewish calandar used 360 days, thus 3.5 years is also 1260 days. The Jewish month used 30 days per month, thus 42 months is also 1260 days. Evangelicals believe this will be the 3.5 year tribulation period yet to begin yet they are unaware of the following:
Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
**Mike adds: In prophetic language, 1 day represents 1 year or in summation 1260 years. What occured that initiated the Apostasy?
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
**Mike concludes: OK, who in 570 AD exalted himself as God, who on his crown wore the Latin inscription "I am in the sted of God", who forbids priest to marry - causing many to stumble and become molestors? The "woman" that was forced into the wilderness for 1260 years was referring to the Church of Christ, she was essentially extinct, in hiding. During the dark ages countless 1000s were tortured and murdered because of their resistance to the false doctrines of this polluted church. I know this is probably offensive to you but you can easily figure out who I'm referring to.
You say,
At this time(1830) it was also called the Church of Christ and had
identical doctrines as the AD 33 Bible Church of Christ.
So why do all Early Christian Writerss 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th century,
not speak of any of your distint beliefs? where is any evidence of this,
if it is historical?
**Mike: Because the early church apostatized and the plain and simple truths were buried or lost. Are you aware that there are numerous missing books of the Bible that the Bible itself refers to?
1 Kings 11:41 And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
If your Chruch was the Original Church, why is there no eveidence of their
existance? such as in writings. you can read all the early Christian
writings at www.earlychristianwriters.com or www.newadvent.org/fathers/
**Mike: The original Church of Christ is plainly written about in the Bible itself, that IS the Church of Christ. Even in some of the old Catholic Bibles the Catholics called themselves the Church of Christ. The reason why these writers did not write about the Church of Christ was because the early church apostatize. Remember what I quoted above in Paul's writings... the 2nd coming would NOT occur until there was FIRST a FALLING AWAY, many departing from the truth.
Thanks Michael, I dont think I am "anti" anything for asking quesitons,
do you? I want only to understand.
Peace be with you
ps I'll be happy to answer anything about my faith also if you wish.
Jeff Myers OR USA
**Mike: Sorry for stating the anti thing, I know some of my points may seem like anti Catholic which really isn't true... some Catholics are better saints than I am, I only have disagreements with doctrines and institutions that are contrary to scriptures. I know what I have written may seem shocking of offensive, but I make no apology for what the scriptures teach... and they repeatedly teach the true points of doctrine concerning Baptism and many other things, as well as the impending apostasy after Paul's ministry, and how long it would last, 1260 years. Another big problem I have is idolotry, the worship of one man over Christ, which the Utah faction does in their own way. They have no problem with their "prophet" changing doctrines, rewriting scripture or latter day revelation, and believing some of the most outrageous things as they trust in the arm of flesh. This is most dangerous, Jesus plainly warns us that in the latter days many false prophets will arise in sheep's clothing but are rather ravening wolves.
Jeremiah 17:5-7 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
I bet I caused more questions than provided answers, feel free to ask for further explanation or scripture quotes if you like.
