AboutMichael Kelley Expertise For a different viewpoint on Mormonism for your questions, try me. I am a staunch believer in the Book of Mormon and belong to another church (the Church of Christ)that is set up identically to the Biblical church. If there are things about traditional Mormonism that trouble you or you have questions about, just ask and you might find the answers from the Book of Mormon to be quite surprising. I have been studying the scriptures diligently for 16 years under the school of hard knocks... I may not have all of the answers but will sure go find them if I don`t. I`m strongest on Biblical and Book of Mormon doctrines, and am also somewhat familiar with Mormon history and archaeology.
Question I am an ex-communicated member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I still completely agree with the teachings of the church and am saddened at the thought of people deceiving people into thinking we are a cult and don't believe in the book of Mormon. I noticed you put down Moroni 8:18 in one of your answers and i've found that it is not the wording in my book of morman. Also i read that you think we are wrong for baptizing the dead. The purpose for this is for the benefit of those who lived during the apostasy in which the original Church of Jesus Christ was lost. It is a chance for those spirits to accept the gospel if they choose to. It's sad that people who choose to follow a different religion after being baptised into the LDS church, do so bitterly. We don't set up websites that condemn other religions and change things that they teach to lure others away from them. I think if anybody wants to know what our beliefs really are then you can go to the original LDS website. www.lds.org Please don't let other people be fooled into thinking we are hypocritcal because we are not!!! I look forward to your reply.
Answer Hi Clare,
I will be happy to answer your questions. Please note I am ex-LDS and belong to the original Church of Christ that believes in the Book of Mormon. I apologize for being slow in responding, I just switched to another internet service. I will reply to each or your questions below in **, Mike
You sent: I am an ex-communicated member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
**Mike replies: I too was excommunicated from the Utah faction but it was at my request. It was particularly troubling for the LDS folks because I was leaving for "righteousness sake" rather than personal iniquity. I left BECAUSE I believe in the Book of Mormon which disagrees with many of the Utah LDS beliefs.
I still completely agree with the teachings of the church and am saddened at the
thought of people deceiving people into thinking we are a cult and don't believe
in the book of Mormon.
**Mike: I find it hard to believe that you accept all of the LDS teachings yet were yourself excommunicated. How can this be?? The Utah LDS people do profess and promote the Book of Mormon yet only follow SOME of it's teachings, and also accept other teachings that the Book of Mormon condemns such as the past practice of polygamy, the current practices of Celestial Marriage, Baptism for the Dead, the 1st Presidency and other lesser doctrines. These things are utterly absent from the Book of Mormon yet it of itself proclaims to be the "fullness of the Gospel" meaning the complete gospel. I cannot imagine a complete gospel forgetting to mention such cornerstone doctrines such as Celestial Marriage and Baptism for the Dead.
I noticed you put down Moroni 8:18 in one of your answers
and i've found that it is not the wording in my book of morman.
**Mike: I'm not sure which quote you are referring to... I may have used the Church of Christ Authorized version which is versed differently than your Utah version. The original manuscript had no versing or punctuation at all (as is typical in Hebrew writings) so the early church forefathers inserted versing of their own. All factions originally used the 1908 versing however the LDS changed their versing in the 1960s.
Also i read
that you think we are wrong for baptizing the dead. The purpose for this is for
the benefit of those who lived during the apostasy in which the original Church
of Jesus Christ was lost. It is a chance for those spirits to accept the gospel
if they choose to.
**Mike: Understood however this goes strongly against Book of Mormon teachings which very plainly states that those who die in their ignorance **NEED NO BAPTISM** and that it is a solemn mockery before God to suppose they would. Here are a few quotes from the LDS version:
Moroni 8:20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, AND ALSO ALL they that are WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on ALL them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING—
2Nephi 9:25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.
Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
Mosiah 15:24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.25 And little children also have eternal life.26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
**Mike adds: Lets take an example... say Uncle Bob died never knowing the Lord or His commandments. According to the Book of Mormon Uncle Bob cannot repent because he knew not what sin was (sin is knowing what a commandment is and breaking it) and the atonement of Christ would save him without baptism just as is the same with little children and infants who die in true ignorance. Being baptized for the dead would mean utterly nothing because they are already saved without baptism. In another case Uncle Bob KNEW the truth, was fully exposed to the commandments of God and personally chose to rebel against God and not repent or be baptized. He dies. The Book of Mormon plainly states that whatsoever spirit possesses you in this life shall possess you in the next and that it is utterly impossible to repent. What good then would it do to be baptized for him if he was a willful rebeller and his fate already sealed? All you would be doing (if it was a valid work to begin with) would be to baptize people unworthily which the both Bible and Book of Mormon condemn. After all if Uncle Bob willfully rebelled against God in this life why wouldn't he in the next if he would be possessed by the same spirit? The third option for Uncle Bob is if he does know the gospel and repents and is baptized... then of course he would not need baptism for the dead if he was already baptized in this life. In all possible scenarios the doctrine of baptism for the dead is meaningless and is very contrary to the scriptures. After all how many millions have died with their names never recorded and none to be baptized for them after they are dead... would a just and merciful God send them to hell even if they were truly ignorant just because nobody today has their names? The entire concept denies the justice and mercy of God the same way as those who say little children must be baptized. The other problem I have with this doctrine is that REPENTENCE is ALSO required in order to be WORTHY for baptism. How many have died WITHOUT repenting? Even more alarming... how many 8 year olds are baptized today who scarecely know what God is or what repentance really means? All you are really doing is making an innocent kid wet and denying them the chance to truly repent later in life with a real intent commitment to Christ by baptism. The LDS concept of baptism is much like the Catholic concept... they make it into a dead work, an empty ritual, rather than a living act of faith.
It's sad that people who choose to follow a different religion
after being baptised into the LDS church, do so bitterly.
**Mike: No bitterness at all... sadness... that so many millions have gone astray and trust in the teachings of man over scripture... even scripture that they profess. Countless other millions REJECT the Book of Mormon because of these false teachings which any good Christian would know cannot possibly be true.
We don't set up websites
that condemn other religions and change things that they teach to lure others away
from them. I think if anybody wants to know what our beliefs really are then you
can go to the original LDS website. www.lds.org Please don't let other people
be fooled into thinking we are hypocritcal because we are not!!! I look forward
to your reply.
**Mike: Thanks but I am well aware of what the Utah faction believes, after all I came from there. My main intent in setting up my website is not to disparage another religion, but to show the seeker what the Book of Mormon really teaches... that they can accept this beautiful gospel as well as the Bible and not have to accept many patently false doctrines. So many feel the Book of Mormon is "another gospel" sent to replace the Bible. This couldn't be further from the truth... the Book of Mormon itself proclaims to be a second witness of the SAME Gospel showing that the Bible is true... NOT a book teachings "another" or different gospel. Yes it's true the LDS faction believes in "another" gospel which teaches new and unscriptural doctrines such as Celestial Marriage, Baptism for the Dead, and the past practice of the abominable (according the Book of Mormon) practice of polygamy.
I do not believe the LDS are being "hypocritical" as they truly believe in what they are doing... however they are being deceived and in a cult like manner treat their leaders much in the same was as the Catholics do as their infallible Popes. The Book of Mormon states that there is a cursing placed upon those who "trust in the arm of flesh" and whose hearts depart from the Lord. The Bible teaches the same thing:
Jeremiah 15:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
**Mike concludes: Salt land... hmmm. I have debated with Utah folks for years and years. In each and every case I have pointed out these same scriptures along with multitudes of others... including many red letter passages that were direct quotes from Jesus Himself. In each and every case the Utah LDS person rejects the scriptures and states "Our prophet is the true prophet of God and we follow his teachings" and often provides numerous reasons and excuses as to why they do this. Ultimately though... at the end of the day... they literally place their trust in their prophet (arm of flesh) and reject whatever the scriptures plainly say (saying it is obsolete or whatever) and reject the very words of Christ. I do not write these things to lure you away from one church to another... but to lure you toward the teachings of Christ. I like to always say... don't trust in what I say... trust the teachings and examples of Christ... He will be your final judge.
