AboutMichael Kelley Expertise For a different viewpoint on Mormonism for your questions, try me. I am a staunch believer in the Book of Mormon and belong to another church (the Church of Christ)that is set up identically to the Biblical church. If there are things about traditional Mormonism that trouble you or you have questions about, just ask and you might find the answers from the Book of Mormon to be quite surprising. I have been studying the scriptures diligently for 16 years under the school of hard knocks... I may not have all of the answers but will sure go find them if I don`t. I`m strongest on Biblical and Book of Mormon doctrines, and am also somewhat familiar with Mormon history and archaeology.
Question QUESTION: Why do Mormons claim to be a follower of GOD and of the bible but then create the Book of Mormon? it says in the bible the book of Revelation 22:18 States "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book."
22:19 "If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book." Do these scriptures not hold any bearing within the mormon Religion?
What is the purpose of the book of mormon if God has already given us his Word... the bible what more is needed to follow him? it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that joseph smith was come to by an angel and by God telling him of the golden tablets (which no one else had laid their eyes on) which contained the words in which the book of mormon is today! He was a man known for his tall tales, what previous credibility does this man have
ANSWER: Hi Adam,
I will be happy to answer your questions. Please note I am ex-LDS and belong to the Church of Christ that believes in the Bible and Book of Mormon.
The origin for the word Bible comes from Greek meaning "Book of books". The book of Revelation was only one of the many books that were compiled to create today's Bible. These books were selected by committees of men, many from a church that most Evangelicals and Protestants would disagree with. When John wrote that a person should not add or take away he also said "THIS BOOK" and "THIS PROPHECY" clearly indicating he was referring to the book he just penned... the Book of Revelation. The Bible as we know it did even exist until hundreds of years later.
There is a similar commandment given in the Old Testament...
Deut. 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut. 12: 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Yet... Moses kept right on adding scripture after scripture... and other prophets kept on adding book after book. Was Moses breaking his own law, were the prophets?? No, of course not. What God was telling the people through Moses was that "You, mankind, do not add, delete or alter MY WORDS that I have commanded my servants to write". This certainly does not mean God cannot speak again and add more to the scriptures. God is not dead, nobody has placed a gag over God's mouth. Even the very gifts of the spirit that is spoken of in the New Testament such as prophecy, revelation, tongues etc. all denote a God that still speaks to His church. The Bible teaches God does not change, not even a shadow of variableness... therefore if God spoke in times of old, He also can speak today. The only time God ceases to speak is when men dwindle in unbelief and no longer are listening.
Why another Bible? Why not? The Bible teaches that EVERY word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. The Book of Mormon teaches the very same precepts as the Bible... it only covers a different people in a different land. Same God, same Gospel. Yes the Bible says we should not follow ANOTHER gospel even if an apostle or angel of light taught it... but the Book of Mormon is NOT another or different gospel, it is the SAME gospel.
Many in the Bible beheld angels. I know of sound minded individuals TODAY who have seen angels. Why is it so impossible for Bible believers to believe in angels today??
The Book of Mormon was preserved on Gold Plates so that they would not corrode and crumble away over time. Isaiah 29 speaks of a buried book that will whisper from the dust, that will speaks as if it came from the dead (dead anscestors speaking to their future decendents through their written words), this book will come from an unlearned man, and will be profitable for instruction. That is what your Bible says. No book of the Bible fulfills Isaiah 29 like the Book of Mormon does.
Joseph Smith was not the only one who physically saw the plates. There were 3 eye witnesses who saw and thumbed through the plates. They even copied a page of the Egyptian characters and the translation was verified by a professor Anthon who wanted to see the rest of the sealed book (also mentioned in Isa 29). These 3 men even opposed Joseph Smith on many points and left the LDS church or were kicked out. They took their testimony to their graves that they saw the plates and the Book of Mormon was true. Even non-believers of their community testified of the moral upright character of these 3 men.
Most people have problems with LDS beliefs such as polygamy, baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, 1st Presidency, a changing God etc. etc. These things are utterly absent in the Book of Mormon and even strongly taught AGAINST. I left the Utah LDS church BECAUSE I believe in the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith was less than a perfect man. He was much like King Saul, David and Solomon who started out sincere and full of faith, but later due to power and being looked up to by the people fell into pride and made many errors. Saul was chosen by God to be king yet was soon utterly rejected by God. David murdered Uriah to steal his wife causing Israel to divide. Solomon had countless wives and concubines and brought into Israel pagan idolotry including human sacrifice! Yet Bible only folks do not tear out the book of Psalms or Proverbs in spite of David and Solomon's failings. David even gave many prophecies of Christ... and through his seed all the way to Mary Christ was born. God can choose whosoever He desires... sometimes weak men that can utterly fail. I believe Joseph Smith is one such man.
Feel free to ask other questions if you wish,
God Bless,
Mike
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QUESTION: If the Book of Mormon is not a different gospel and is the "Same" why would you need it. If it teaches the same principles of the Bible why have another? Also aside from this... How come the Mormon religion drastically changes with society to meet everyones needs? In the beginning with joseph smith it talks about people staying away from caffeine, nicotine and stuff alike... why is that different now. Also why did joseph smith in his time of teaching all of this do those very things? ~ Another thing i don't understand is how Mormons believe Christ/Jesus and Satan are brothers? I've watched that old Mormon animation explaning the religion.... that's the most farfetched thing that i've heard of... It starting out that everyone were superhuman beings that were eventually sent down to earth for jesus to be our savior so the people that were with jesus became his angels; the ones that revolted followed satan to become his demons and then the ones that stayed NEUTRAL were the BLACKS? Tell me that isn't wrong or racist? just believing that Jesus and Satan being brothers is totally against the bible and does not teach the same truth as the BIBLE. so you can't say that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are the same Gospel. They're nothing alike.
ANSWER: Hi Adam,
I will reply to your additional questions below in **, Mike
You sent: QUESTION: If the Book of Mormon is not a different gospel and is the "Same" why would you need it. If it teaches the same principles of the Bible why have another?
**Mike replies: Paul teaches that every word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.
2 Cor. 13: 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
**Mike adds: It makes perfect sense that God would verify His word through additional witnesses, this is a perfectly valid principle and was why God caused the BoM to be written to authenticate the Bible. There are yet more books to be translated that are from the lost tribes. After all, if God dead? Who put the gag on God that He cannot speak to us in the latter days?
Adam: Also aside from this... How come the Mormon religion drastically changes with society to meet everyones needs? In the beginning with joseph smith it talks about people staying away from caffeine, nicotine and stuff alike... why is that different now.
**Mike: Both Bible and BoM state that God does not change, not even has a shadow of variableness. When religion changes to yield to the pressures of society, they are in effect allow society to pollute the church. The Word of Wisdom thing supposedly came from an event where Smith had men visiting his home and some were spitting tobacco on the floor. Emma Smith of course was insensed and demanded Joseph to have a revelation condemning tobacco. He got mad and retorted that he could just as easily have a revelation condemning the ladies hot teas. Later that night he supposedly had a revelation that condemned hot drinks and tobacco. Yet the early church did not make this any sort of official doctrine until many years later and it somehow changed into condemning alcohol, tobacco and caffeinated drinks. This "suggestion" now has become an essential law in the LDS church. Personally I think the whole think is ridiculous. Jesus drank fermented wine with the sinners. The Church of Christ has no stand against coffee or anything like that, only drunkenness. The LDS are much like the Pharisees where they take some petty rule or suggestion and blow it up into some terribly important law. The Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for "working" on the sabbath when he was only doing good on the sabbath.
Adam: Also why did joseph smith in his time of teaching all of this do those very things?
**Mike: Right! Jesus quoted Isaiah prophecying of his generation as well as ours:
Matt. 15: 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Adam:~ Another thing i don't understand is how Mormons believe Christ/Jesus and Satan are brothers? I've watched that old Mormon animation explaning the religion.... that's the most farfetched thing that i've heard of... It starting out that everyone were superhuman beings that were eventually sent down to earth for jesus to be our savior so the people that were with jesus became his angels; the ones that revolted followed satan to become his demons and then the ones that stayed NEUTRAL were the BLACKS? Tell me that isn't wrong or racist?
**Mike: Oh yeah! Now you begin to see why I left the LDS church. The BoM (Book of Mormon) teaches none of those things. Most LDS today do not believe in those things either. Many of their past leaders such as Brigham Young, Eliza Snow and others were rabid racists... they even said Africans could never hold Priesthood or political offices and any caught in interracial relationships were to be put to death on the spot. The BoM teaches that all are equal in God's eyes, Jew or Gentile, Black or White. Most LDS today say "that was just their opinion, not official doctrine" yet excluding Africans from the priesthood WAS official church doctrine until recently. Joseph Smith himself was not racist, he even ordained an African as an Elder. This was strictly started by Young when he went to Utah.
Adam: just believing that Jesus and Satan being brothers is totally against the bible and does not teach the same truth as the BIBLE. so you can't say that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are the same Gospel. They're nothing alike.
**Mike: Obviously you have never read the BoM because it never taught Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. It teaches that Jesus was the ONLY begotten Son of God, and that there is only ONE God who is UNCHANGEABLE for all eternity. Most antis fail to understand that the BoM condemns the Mormons even moreso than the Bible does. They do not understand that while the Mormons profess the BoM, they do not FOLLOW it. It is not an uncommon practice for apostates to not follow their own books. I had a Baptist lady try and try to turn me away from the BoM and she finally read it and said "Hey, this teaches the same thing as the Bible teaches". If you were to read it you will find out for yourself this is true. Most people who fight against the BoM have never read it and only know what their Church of antis say about it. That would be like believing in what athiests say about the Bible and never reading the Bible for yourself.
Mike
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QUESTION: oh i did have one more question... I read on the history of mormonism that when joseph was deciphering the Golden Tablets to (sorry can't remember the guys name) to write down on paper it says that he took those home and lost them on purpose to test Joseph smith on the decifering and when came the second time for Smith to decipher again everything was said to be totally different??? why is that? that would make it seem to be made up and false.... i wouldn't be able to believe the guy at all!!!! Where are the tablets today? if made of Gold to prevent wear and tear wouldn't and shouldn't that item be present for all to see... No one knows where they are at, right? for something like that... which would be important for me to see for myself instead of relying on only 3 people to say they saw it. that's just not believable. oh so anyway yes it's true, i've never read the BoM but the talk of jesus and satan being brothers was told to me by my friend... a mormon believer and the guy the mentors him within the religion. so just wanted to get that across that i'm not taking information from antis it's all information that i've either read on the history of mormonism or straight from someone that believes in that religion.
well my mind is everywhere i have alot of questions going through my head so sorry if i'm hitting the board all over the place
So what is the basis of the religion? it's close to christianity? what makes it different.
i was raised christian and i don't doubt my religion in any way....
Answer Hi Adam,
I will reply to your other questions below in **, Mike
You sent: QUESTION: oh i did have one more question... I read on the history of mormonism that when joseph was deciphering the Golden Tablets to (sorry can't remember the guys name) to write down on paper it says that he took those home and lost them on purpose to test Joseph smith on the decifering and when came the second time for Smith to decipher again everything was said to be totally different??? why is that? that would make it seem to be made up and false.... i wouldn't be able to believe the guy at all!!!!
**Mike replies: Your information is totally incorrect, I am not sure where you are getting this from. I know most anti websites try to have some semblance of accuracy while some others don't care about the truth at all. Joseph Smith loaned a small portion of the translation to Martin Harris because Martin Harris's wife demanded to see the work or she would oppose him in his support for Smith and the translation work. Joseph had been commanded by God to not show the work to others but after Martin bugged him several times he caved in and loaned the first 116 pages of the BoM (Book of Mormon) that had been translated. Martin's wife was bitterly opposed to the work and her intent was to create an altered copy and after the work was released she would reveal her alteration and try to discredit the entire work. God knew this and severely rebuked Smith for his disobedience and commanded him to NOT retranslate those 116 lost pages. They remain lost to this very day. Any claim that what we have today is in contradiction to some lost pages is a complete falsehood.
Adam: Where are the tablets today? if made of Gold to prevent wear and tear wouldn't and shouldn't that item be present for all to see... No one knows where they are at, right?
**Mike: The plates and the translator stones (called Urim and Thummim or Interpreters) was removed from Smith's possession immediately after the translation was completed by an angel. It is possible that Smith would have been allowed to retain them if he had been more faithful. However due to his disobedience in losing the 116 pages and in other instances Smith was found unworthy to retain them in his possession. I believe this was to protect the remaining untranslated portion from Smith or his enemies who sought (and eventually did) to kill him.
Adam: for something like that... which would be important for me to see for myself instead of relying on only 3 people to say they saw it. that's just not believable.
**Mike: A total of 12 people saw the plates. Even in the greatest of adversity they all kept their testimony to their graves. I personally have not seen Jesus nor any of the original 12 Apostles, yet I know the Bible is true by the gift of the Holy Ghost. The same can be true for the BoM if the person has a sincere desire to know from God if it is true (rather than the sole mission of attacking it). There are people who attack the Bible because of the lies against the Bible, or the bad examples of Bible professors... yet this does not make the enemies of the Bible right in their attacks. Many things God expects us to take on faith. The scriptures teach that it is impossible to please God without faith... and that an evil and adulterous generation seek a sign before they will believe. It has been my experience that even if unbelievers are given signs they still disbelieve.
Adam: oh so anyway yes it's true, i've never read the BoM but the talk of jesus and satan being brothers was told to me by my friend... a mormon believer and the guy the mentors him within the religion.
**Mike: OK, yet there is a multitude of LDS beliefs that are openly against Bible or BoM teachings. Satan and Jesus being brothers is one example. This is like Catholics murdering innocent people during the dark ages in the name of Christ... their bad examples does not mean the Bible is false, only that some Catholics failed to follow the Bible is all.
Adam: so just wanted to get that across that i'm not taking information from antis it's all information that i've either read on the history of mormonism or straight from someone that believes in that religion.
**Mike: OK, understood. I know this is difficult to grasp, but the LDS give the BoM a bad name. The religion of the ancient prophet Mormon, who compiled many writings that became the BoM, is fundamental Christianity... very similar to many Bible only religions. The ancient prophet Mormon is probably rolling in his grave at what these Utah LDS have done in his name. His religion bears little resemblance to what the LDS practice. I have read the BoM cover to cover 4 times and studied it literally 1000s of times and it does NOT teach LDSism. The very reason why I left the Utah church is because I believe in the BoM.
Adam: well my mind is everywhere i have alot of questions going through my head so sorry if i'm hitting the board all over the place
**Mike: No problem. There is MUCH to wade through in Restoration history, the different factions and the different beliefs, and what the Bible and BoM actually teach. I can only say study in patience, do not trust what I say but trust the teachings and examples of Christ.
Adam: So what is the basis of the religion? it's close to christianity? what makes it different.
i was raised christian and i don't doubt my religion in any way....
**Mike: The BoM religion is IDENTICAL to Biblical Christianity. Now before you get too far... this does not always match many Christian churches because THEY have departed from the right way as well. Some teach baptism by immersion, some sprinkle infants, some say baptism is meaningless. There are 10,000s of Bible based churches, each with differing doctrines and beliefs. One of the very purposes of the restoration and the BoM is to bring unity and clarity to Christian beliefs. For those who follow it, it indeed does this. Unfortunately many apostate factions have corrupted the early Restoration and now it bears little resemblance to the church God intended it to be. Today there are some 100 different factions that believe in the BoM. There are even Bible only folks who have studied the BoM and became converted to it and are starting their own churches outside of the Restoration.
There is much to wade through and it is very time consuming. There are also many lies to navigate around, bad examples of the BoM professors, and contradicting histories. I will be happy to help answer any other questions you might have about the Restoration... it is very deep and will take time. Feel free to write to me directly if you like at technomn@msn.com and we can continue these discussion. The All Experts forum is a bit awkward for long back and forth conversations.
