AboutWayne Tucker Expertise I will attempt an answer to any question you care to ask about the United Methodist Church, or any other matter of faith.
Experience I am an ordained Elder in the United Methodist Church. I have been a pastor since January, 1988. I am a member of the Indiana Conference of the United Methodist Church. M.Div. Christian Theological Seminary, 1991
Tom wrote at 2008-01-11 07:59:24
Dear Chad, & Wayne,
It grieves me to find that the main point is so fully missed, in the attempt to place Baptism itself in one or the other position of importance:
1. Chad, by your fifth item on the "to-do" list, it appears that you expect that Saving Grace must necessarily include this as a prerequisite.
This would make Jesus at least incorrect in His Promise to the repentant thief on the second cross. As you pointed out, we are admonished to "repent & be baptized". I believe, both from studying God's inerrant Word, & through His Workings in me (by which I came to clear Conviction of sin, Saving Faith in Jesus Christ's completed Work on the Cross, and so was "Born Again"), that the order of Repentance followed by Baptism is not merely important. It is, moreover, an illustration that Baptism is both the chosen response of the new believer, to God's Saving Grace, and also a sacramental vehicle for God's Response to that believer's Surrender. Just as God had no need to be "shown" Abram's Faith when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac (He eternally Knows these things), niether has He any need to have that thief physically baptized (regardless of our definitions of the method) in order to Agree with that believer's acceptance of Christ as Savior. As Wayne pointed out, "It is by Grace that you are Saved, through Faith..."
2. Wayne, I find it amazing that the Methodist clerical mainstream seems so insistent on God's sole Sovereignty at the Baptismal Font, while vehimently resisting any hint of Calvinism. As I place these two ideas side-by-side, I have to conclude that the same God Who would seem somehow unfair in the doctrine of election of some, is the One Who Acts Sovereignly to Baptize some. If we look aside from the repentant thief, and instead study the horrible example of Adolph Hitler, then we are presented with a scriptural problem: Hitler was Baptized as an infant. His life clearly demonstrates utter Anti-Christ activity. Jesus said that it was not His Father's Will that even one of those Appointed to Him, by the Father, should slip through His Fingers. It is clear that Hitler's Baptism had no Saving effect. If the Father Sovereignly Baptizes infants into His Church, Universal, then He is able to fail utterly, at the expense of countless innocent lives. If however (as Scripture states) only if we abide in Christ, the True Vine, can we do anything Good, then Saving Grace comes by the means described in Scripture: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. I submit that the change (in 1996) in Methodist Doctrine is the most anti-Gospel, anti-relational poit of view one could take toward a God Who determined that we were worth Dying for. Conversion is our only acceptable response to His Work on the Cross. It does not happen, except as a free-will choice to surrender, as He did, to the Father.
Best Regards,
Tom
Elisha wrote at 2008-05-15 01:56:28
Hello,
I am not of any particular church but I've been to several different denominations in my life (though I do not remember the details of them all)...Trinity Lutheran, Methodist, Universalist Unitarian, and the list goes on...
Throughout my visits to the various congregations of beliefs, it has been my understanding that the BAPTISM itself is a visual symbolism of the "washing away of sins". Yes, the acceptance of god into one's heart comes with it...but couldn't you do that technically without such a formal ritual?
I see no problem with infant baptisms. According to most beliefs, a baby is born of sin is it not? My understanding of an infant baptism was to wash away this particular sin.
I know a lot of people like to delve into the more philosophical an spiritual meanings of baptisms, but the basis of it is it is washing away sin.
So, there it is from a "neutral party" standpoint.
Good day,
Elisha
