Expert: Leo Luczak - 10/28/2006

Question
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Thanks so much for your response, though it made my heart sink a little bit! I didn't plan on getting a permit, which I know is not legal and not a good idea, but I'm trying to do this as correctly and as inexpensively as possible yet not have everything fall through the floor. My only other thought was to bang out the wall between the rooms that I want to remodel. Here's my thought:

1. I could keep the toilet where it is.

2. I could put the new tub where the old tub is (even though I still want a whirlpool tub).

3. I could then just rebuild the wall back farther so that I'd have a bigger bathroom and then move the sink setup a few feet back farther.

4. I could make the room where I wanted to put the bathroom the laundry room instead. Maybe there's less plumbing issues for that.

5. The only problem is that the room where I wanted the bathroom to be has a window in it that's about 9" from the wall that I want to bang out. The house is brick, so moving the window isn't much of an option. If I'd move the wall to the other side of the window, I wouldn't have much of a laundry room. I'd only have a room about 5' wide. Then again, maybe I could put the washer and dryer and a table and shelves against the wall and still have room to walk in front of them. I'd have to measure the washer/dryer.

I'm going nuts in this small bathroom, and I'd like to sell the house in a few years. I think that making the bathroom bigger would be a real plus.

Do you think these ideas have merit?

Thanks much again,

Susan


The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
Hello:

I live in a home that was built in about 1927. I have a small bathroom on the second floor and would like to turn that into a laundry room and make the room right next to it a larger bathroom. I know someone who could do the rerouting of the plumbing, which will save a lot of money. Here are my dilemmas:

1. I plan to move the toilet about 6 feet directly across from where it is now. The tub setup will be about 6 feet from the spot where it is now also. I'm not sure where I'd like to put the sink setup, but I was thinking that it would be about 8 feet across from where it is now (these measures are all going into the next room). I will put the washer and dryer in the existing bathroom.

2. My floor joists are (of course) going the wrong way, so in order to put in new plumbing, I'll have to cut through the joists. I know that I need to have slope, which may pose a problem. The joists are 7-1/2" wide. I will be putting down a new subfloor, so I will be able to visualize the plumbing route easily. Part of my reason for moving the bathroom is that it's small, and I will also be able to use the existing bathroom while doing the remodeling, which is a big plus.

3. I cannot afford a contractor, so I am relying on my friend's expertise (he is experienced with putting in spas and has remodeled two other bathrooms with great results). I would like to put a whirlpool or air spa in the bathroom, and I am concerned that with joists being cut through, I might end up with the tub in my dining room!

Any advice you may give will be helpful. I basically would like to know if making the new bathroom is a possibility to begin with because of the rerouting issues.

Thanks much!!

Susan
York, PA
-----Answer-----
Are you planning to get a building permit for these structural alterations?   I have doubts that 2x8 joists will support the fixtures after you cut through them.  By Code it is possible to carefully bore holes through the floor joists if the diameter of the hole does not exceed 1/2 of the joist size and you leave a minimum of 2 inches of good joist material on the top and bottom face of the joist.  That means you could have a maximum hole of 2 1'2 inches if it was dead center in the joist.  Minumim drain size for a toilet is 3 inches (so it just won't fit) and maximum length of the horizontal run is 6 feet before it hits a vertical drain and vent.  This pipe should drop 1/4 inch per foot so this further makes it impossible to fit the pipe within the joist without seriously weakening the structure of the floor.

Anyway there are alot of issues here.  If you get a building permit the inspector will at least check this out structurally and review the plumbing design.  If not I  recommend you find someone competent to design your floor system and plumbing.  If your friend suggested just cutting through the joists I recommend you decline his offer to do unlicensed carpentry and plumbing on your bathroom.

Answer
1)  Good idea -  placing the toilet is the number one headache in bathroom plumbing.

2) Also a good idea.

3) Not a bad idea except there are water supply lines and a drain and vent that runs from the floor up to the ceiling.  This could be moved though.... also there is probably electrical wiring in the wall (knob and tube style?) Also if the wall turns out to be a bearing wall you will need to put a header where the old wall was located to support the weight.

4)  If you place the washer up against the new wall it might be possible to share the sink drain and vent - but a washer needs a 2 inch drain and a sink only needs 1 1/2 inches, so hope that it is oversized.

5)   Don't know what you can do about the window unless you can somehow jog around it.

And hope you don't het caught building and plumbing without a permit - it can get real costly!