Safes & Security Containers/Lefebure ports vault

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Question
Lefebure
Lefebure  
Lefebure
Lefebure  
QUESTION: Andy,

What can you tell me about this ports vault 5000 safe?
What is it rated?



Is it possible to Kay it on its back ( it is too tall to go through the door)

Do you know anyone in the D.C. Area that can move this?

Thanks
John

ANSWER: John,

Unfortunately, all my LeFebure info is at my office, so I can't give you any specific details about the safe at this time, such as weight, rating, etc.   I can tell you that "IF" this safe is a rated safe, it "WILL" have a label on the door indicating what that rating is - so you really don't need me for that.

The label will either be a "UL" label indicating its burglary resistance rating, and/or any fire ratings or a specific manufacturers label indicating its rating.   Europe has their own rating system (similar to UL), but if it was sold in the US it SHOULD have a UL label.   From its size and basic construction it would appear to possibly be a "TRTL-30x6" safe - or at a minimum a "TL-30 composite body" safe.

As far as weight, I would need to look in my information to get close to an exact weight, but again based on the photo (no sizes were provided), I would have to estimate that it is going to be in the 6000 lb range.

While yes it is possible to lay it over on its back to move or maneuver it, this will take special equipment that most safe companies simply won't have, which means that you WILL need to utilize a company that has rigging skills and equipment.

There are only three companies that I would recommend in your area for this work, and they are all in New York.

OZ Trucking & Rigging      Paul Ousey
29 Wyandanch Avenue
Wyandanch, New York 11798
631-253-2010 Main
631-253-2020 FAX
http://oztruckingandrigging.com/

Acme Safe Company
214 W 29th St  
New York, NY 10001
(212) 686-0668
http://www.acmesafenewyork.com/

Empire Safe Company
6 E 39th St
New York, NY
(212) 684-2255
http://www.empiresafe.com/219/home

Check out their web sites to get an idea of what they can do, and then contact them to get bids on your work.   You will need to have very specific information about your job, and/or photos - or they may need to send someone down to take a look - which could cost.

Manufacturer:     LeFebure
Model:          5000
Rating:     (should be listed ON the safe)
Exact size of the safe - inside and outside dimensions -  H x w x d
Weight:    approximate - around 6000 lbs

Removal location info to include any steps or stairs, size of doors that it will need to go through.  Floor it is located on,  Elevators available and weight rating of each.
Parking areas for trucks and equipment.

Dates that you need it moved by (be realistic here).   If you need it moved tomorrow, you should have called a month ago!    Most safe moving companies are booked up at least 1 to 2 weeks out.   while they may have an open date, a job like this may require two trucks and 4 men, plus specialized equipment, which means planning and scheduling.

Hope this helps out, if you still need any info, you can either email me directly or call me Monday after 8am PDST.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Time lock
Time lock  
QUESTION: Andy,

The dimensions are 86" tall x 49" wide and 40" deep.
When you get a chance to look at your information at the office I would be glad to learn anything I can about it.
I was estimating it at close to 10k pounds.

It has a time lock on the door and full length licking bar.
Do you have an opinion of this safe and an estimated value
I can not physically look at it because I'm too far away so I was hoping you would know the rating but if you can't I will ask the seller if they can find the u.l. Tags.  Could this be a class I or II rating system?

Moving should be easy its on the ground floor and it is bare concrete with no steps. The hard part will be dealing with the weight and the door way is oy 83" tall.

Thank you,
John

ANSWER: John,

I have no idea what a "full length licking bar" is???   Sounds like something you or the seller made up as you didn't know what the item was called.    That doesn't help.

As far as "value", I don't estimate value without knowing a lot more about the safe, and/or being able to inspect it.   Sorry but my wife broke my crystal ball about the same time she killed my money tree!   LOL

The photos that you have included do NOT provide enough details for an actual inspection to see what you have.   Upon second look, this may not be a safe, it may be a mini-vault.
Where did you get the safe model number as a "LeFebure model 5000"???    The LeFebure 5000 is a Vault Door, and NOT the model of a safe.   This would give it a class I or II vault rating, NOT simply a TL or TRTL rating.
If this is a LeFebure 5000 vault door on a mini-Vault, then it may well be in the 10,000 lb rating.

If in fact this is a Mini-Vault then value goes out the window for a couple reasons - first being the size and second being this is a specialty item.    While it could be worth some big $$$$ if it was ready to install somewhere, this one is going to cost a whopping fee to have it moved, which really, really detracts from its potential value.    If you are looking towards selling this later on, then you had better have a place set aside where you can hold on to it indefinitely until a potential buyer is found, AND you had better be prepared to advertise, advertise, advertise.    While Mini vaults are "neat", items they simply don't sell very well.

Unfortunately, as this door has "trapped hinges", removal of the door may not be possible (easily) to move the door and the safe body as separate units.

as far as the door frame only giving you 83" of clearance, and as it looks like the building is having some work done, you may want to look at the option of removal of the door frame and any threshold, to give you some additional clearance.   If this isn't possible to remove the door frame, (and don't simply say it is if you haven't asked or offered to pay for the removal and reinstallation),  then it may be necessary to lay it over, the problem is, the equipment necessary may also be too large for the door.

It may be necessary to "concrete-saw cut an opening in one of the walls, possibly at one of the windows, to gain a spot to remove this beast.   Afterwards the hole can easily be repaired and the wall as good as new - though this part of the job would require a licensed contractor.

I'll check my LeFebure documentation tomorrow to see if I have any more info.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Andy,

A full length locking bar is what it has on door instead of round locking bolts.
It is the length of the door and it is one pice. If you look closely at the first picture of the door you can see it.
Just like what some of the bank vaults have that do not have round locking bolts.

Why would there be less demand for this compared to a Chubb sovereign or a ism super platinum if I decide to resell it (arnt they close in size and weight)? I was going to buy it and use it but don't want something that is worthless if I do decide on down the road to sell it.

Are there any other mini vault manufactures or models that I can compare this too?


John

Answer
John,

Ok that makes more sense - darn spell check never works when you need it!   Licking Bar simply didn't make any sense.

Difference is you are comparing a safe to basically a portable vault.   Its an apples and oranges thing, and they are NOT rated the same.

As far as VALUE - don't get me wrong, I never indicated that it was "worthless", but due to its size, and weight, you have a lot more costs associated with a beast like this than you would a large safe along with the BIG factor that these monsters only "ACTUALLY" sell to a very small, potential buying clientele.   It could EASILY take from a year to 10 years to find a buyer for it.

Some issues that you WILL have, would be the weight rating of the floor at the new location.   Floors are rated in their ability to support a load, based in pounds per square foot.   Some floors are simply NOT adequate to support a Full size vault, and/or a mini-Vault.    Structures can be beefed up by adding supporting beams or by spreading the weight out over a larger area, for instance laying down 1" plate steel.   You still have the same weight but instead of spreading it out over, say 16 sqft (4x4) you spread it out over 64 sqft (8x8)   If the floor would normally support say 500 lbs per square foot, the smaller area would give you a max load of around 8000 lbs, where as spreading the weight over the larger area you would get a load capacity of 32,000 lbs for the same floor.

Obviously there are many more calculations that go into it, but you get the idea.

There are no "MINI-Vault" manufacturers, as such.   Any manufacturer can build one, but this would be considered a specialty item, and would generally be built for a specific client, and based on their requirements at the time of fabrication.   Which is one of the reasons that there is no real comparison (again apples and oranges) to a stand alone safe (regardless of the size or rating), as the safes would be a production item, and NOT a custom made container.

Any time and for any item - if you stop a production line to build a one of kind item, the price is going to go up significantly.   Unfortunately, this doesn't equate to value later on down the line as this item was built specifically to someone's requirements.    The next buyer is taking it "as is", and making it fit their needs - so it is no longer a custom built product, and the associated costs (up front) are now simply a cost of doing business, and NOT something that you can recoup by selling it.   Generally with specialty items, the seller excepts a huge loss on their original investment to "unload" this "white whale".

Most large safe companies would never "purchase" an item like this, they would however charge you a pick up and disposal fee.    It might sit in their warehouse until they can find a buyer for it, but "THEY" and not the original seller or the new buyer, are the only ones going to make any money off a container like this.

Don't get me wrong, If I could afford to pick one up, AND if I could get my wife to let me bring it home, I would have one, built in to my home!    But you aren't asking me if I like the container, you are asking for an unbiased opinion as well as options for this container and your situation.

If you are thinking about having this container for use in a business, then part of what you should be thinking about WOULD be 5-10 years down the road (near & long term business).   If this is going to satisfy a long term need, then it may be the correct decision.   However if you anticipate enough growth in the next 5-10 years to justify a remodeling of your store, then it may not be justified.    Using smaller safes now (nothing says you can only have one), that cost less, spread your inventory out in three or four high security containers, which also have a much more promising resale life, planning for an eventual remodel and a full size vault may be a better idea.
You are investing a lot of time and money into an item that may not be able to go away in the future, and may in fact cost you money at that time as well.

Another problem with LeFebure is going to be parts.    LeFebure has not been around since it was acquired by Mosler in the 1990's, and Mosler went bankrupt in 2001, so they are no longer around either.    While some parts like the locks are still available, other parts and items are not, which means damaged or broken items will have to be machined or fabricated to keep the door operational.    There is no aftermarket source for older parts - once a company is out of business that's pretty much it - unless parts are salvaged from a similar door, they will NOT be available.    So assuming that this container is currently 15 to 20 years old now, by the time that YOU decide to sell it, it could easily be in the 30 to 40 year old range.   You aren't going to sell something that old and make any money back off of your original purchase, and will probably have to pay some one, (some big bucks) to take it off your hands or haul it away.

Hope this helps,  Remember this is just my humble opinion.  

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Terry V. Andreasen (Andy)

Expertise

Safe and Vault related Questions; Antique Safe Repair and Restoration; With over 44 years in the Safe & Vault industry, if I can't answer your question I know where to get the answer. Current Project: Restoration of an Ely Norris Cannonball safe from the early 1900's. Will answer Safe & Vault related questions concerning age, value, restoration, moving, opening & repairing, parts, operation and history. Note: It is not my intention to teach you to open safes or to provide information which may aid in the unlawful opening of a safe. I will not give out drill points or information which I deem inappropriate. NOTE: I also answer safe related questions in the Locksmith and Antique Safe Categories sections.

Experience

44 years in the Safe & Vault Industry. Owner and Service Manager for one of the largest Safe & Vault companies on the West Coast. Graduate of Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing, Safe lock Manipulation and Safe Deposit Lock Courses. Graduate of Locksmith Institute. Certified Instructor for the California Locksmith Association teaching Basic and Advanced Lock Servicing, Basic Safe opening and Repairing. Factory Trained by AMSEC, LORD Safes, LeFebure, Mosler, KabaMas, LaGard and Sargent & Greenleaf. Author of "The Coffee Table Guide to Antique Safes".

Organizations
Safecrackers International National Antique Safe Association Safe & Vault Technicians Association (SAVTA)

Publications
The Coffee Table Guide to Antique Safes AllExperts.com

Education/Credentials
Graduate of Locksmith Institute 1972 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Servicing 1974 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Lock Manipulation 1975 Graduate Lockmasters Safe Deposit Lock Servicing 1985 Instructor Certified - California Locksmith Association - 1985 Factory trained by AMSEC, MAJOR, STAR, Johnson-Pacific, Kaba-MAS, Allied-Gary, ISM, Lord, Brown Safe, EXL, Mosler, Diebold.

Awards and Honors
2009 - 2015 - Listed in AllExperts top 50 experts. All Experts categories - Safes & Security Containers, Locksmithing, Antique Safes. Retired US Army Chief Warrant Officer (CW4), with 39 years of total service. With numerous awards from Vietnam, Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. US Navy - 1971-1981 US Army Reserve 1984-2013 US Army Retired

Past/Present Clients
US Secret Service, FBI, BATF, Local Law enforcment agencies, Diebold, Hamilton Pacific, Red Hawk Int., Chubb International, Bank of America, Wells Fargo Bank, Mechanics Bank, El Dorado Savings Bank, many Credit unions and smaller banks. McDonalds, Togos, BurgerKing, TacoBell, Carls Jr. FoodMaxx, SaveMart, Lucky's, Albertson's, Raley's, Safeway, NobHill, Bell Markets, PW Markets. Great America, Century Theatres, Cinemark Theatres, UA Cinemas, and many homeowners and small businesses. Provide warranty service for lock and safe manufactures. Service area is Northern California - Fresno to Oregon, including western Nevada

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