AboutTom Norris Expertise I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel.
Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.
Experience Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform.
Question QUESTION: Hi Tom,
Why do you get mad at me for expressing my views of you? You can say every bad thing about what you call "traditional" Adventists (which you label me as) but I can say nothing about my observations of your track record. Doesn't seem fair!
Anyway, my question is about your last response to me about the Third Angel's Message - how is "just proclaiming it" back in the early days a fulfillment of that prophecy and message? Doesn't there have to be an actual 'mark' (whatever one may believe it to be) that is imposed on the people of the world? Do you actually believe the fulfillment of it is just proclaiming it? If so, how do you come to that conclusion - what biblical principle is there?
Thanks, David R.
ANSWER: David, I am not upset in the slightest with you. This is a free and open discussion about SDA history and doctrine. Everyone is free to ask questions or express whatever views they wish, including those that support the dishonest and incompetent White Estate.
However, don’t confuse freedom of discussion with truth. It is the facts that matter, not propaganda, rumor, or double-talk. Those that promote such misinformation, no matter how innocently are not going to fare well in this discussion. They are going to be bluntly corrected in front of all. But don’t take it personally. It is too late in the day to pretend. There is far too much misinformation in the public domain about SDA’s and it is time to start correcting the record.
Moreover, I am an Adventist, and I can assure you that I would like to see the Advent Movement wake up from the dead and prosper. I am not one of those anti-SDA / anti-Ellen White critics that have nothing good to say about Adventism. So if you have any respect for the Pioneers, you should like Adventist Reform, because it represents the historic doctrines that define Adventism and have the support of the Pioneers. The present chaos, which is a combination of Pluralism, Corruption, and Traditional Adventism, has no support from Ellen White as many assume.
All Adventists were taught that doctrinal truth and honesty is a moral imperative. As Protestants, they taught it was a sin to lie and deceive people about what the Bible teaches. That has not changed has it?
I can’t imagine that you would want me to play along with those that have suppressed and fabricated Ellen white’s writings. Or to pretend that all is well in the White Estate, when I know otherwise. Perhaps you would look the other way, I know others have done so. But I cannot be party to such an outrageous crime. I am an eyewitness to this fraud and thus I have a duty to tell the truth and expose this consumer crime that has confused millions, even as it has ruined the reputation of Ellen White.
Don’t you want to hear the facts and see the evidence?
Don’t you want to know what really happened in 1888 and Glacier View?
Don’t you want to understand what Ellen White really believes?
I hope so.
But regardless, Adventist Reform is a serious and much needed antidote for the dying and confused Advent Movement. I suggest that you take it more seriously and consider the possibility that Traditional Adventism is wrong, and so too all this division within the Adventist Community.
The end of the world has never been closer. And a new age of worry about the end of the world has begun for mankind. This is a great opportunity for Adventism to stand up and do their duty; but only if they can grasp the facts and repent of their past and present doctrinal errors.
Tom Norris NOT A Jesuit
As for your observations that I am a Jesuit that has infiltrated the SDA church; this is a preposterous and absurd rumor, started by those that cannot defend their incorrect positions. Not being able to refute what Tom Norris, (or Dr. Ford) is saying, some choose to manufacture slander as a diversion. I suggest that you stick with the facts and avoid such silly nonsense.
The present course of the Advent Movement is not sustainable. Those that really care about Adventism or Ellen White should want to see the situation resolved. Those that respect the Pioneers and claim to embrace the Adventist Apocalyptic should want to run from the fraud of the White Estate and return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages, which has the full endorsement of Ellen White.
The Fulfillment of the Three Angels Messages
Did the Pioneers teach that the 1st Angels Message was fulfilled?
Yes.
What was the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message? Was it the Second Coming? Hardly.
Many SDA’s fail to understand Adventist eschatology correctly. The “fulfillment” of the 1st Angels Message was not the Second Coming, but the PREACHING about the Second Coming. This is an important distinction that you have overlooked.
"A Great religious awakening under the proclamation of Christ's soon coming is foretold in the prophecy of the first angel's message of Revelation 14. An angel is seen flying "in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." "With a loud voice" he proclaims the message: 'Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.'" (GC 355.1)
"To William Miller and his colaborers it was given to preach the warning in America. This country became the center of the great advent movement. It was here that the prophecy of the first angel's message had its most direct fulfillment. The writings of Miller and his associates were carried to distant lands. Wherever missionaries had penetrated in all the world, were sent the glad tidings of Christ's speedy return. Far and wide spread the message of the everlasting gospel: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come."" (GC 369)
Listen to Bates agree:
We were also greatly cheered and strengthened by the light, which we received on the subject of the three angels' messages of Rev. 14:6-12.
We fully believed that we had been giving the first of these--"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come; "--that the proclamation of definite time, that mighty movement which roused the world, and created such a general and wide-spread interest in the Advent doctrine, was a perfect fulfillment of that message.
After the passing of the time, our eyes were opened to the fact that two other messages followed, before the coming of Christ: the second angel announcing the fall of Babylon, and the third giving a most solemn warning against false worship, and presenting the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Bates Autobiography, Chapter 26)
All the Adventist Pioneers viewed the PROCLAMATION and PREACHING as the FULFILLMENT of each of these Three, chronological and historic Messages. Thus the term “message” was a synonym for preaching by the Advent Movement, even as the Judgment only meant the Second Coming, NOT THE IJ.
Thus, the Pioneers taught that Millers great Message about the Second Coming fulfilled the prophecy of the 1st Angels Message, even though the Second Coming did not take place as expected. It was not the prophetic event, like the Second Coming, or separating from the fallen churches, or the Mark of the beast that fulfilled the prophecy of these three Messages. No. It was the preaching that these things would happen.
Just as the 1st Angels Message was fulfilled by Millers preaching, so too the proclamation of the Sabbath, during the 3rd Angels Message did the same thing. Thus the SDA’s have fulfilled the 3rd Angels Messages, even though they have ruined the Advent Movement in the process.
With all the SDA’s have done wrong, they still get credit for saving the paradigm and for fulfilling the 3rd Angels Message. The Sabbath has been globally proclaimed by the SDA’s and thus this phase of the Advent Movement is now over. The pillar of the Sabbath has not transpired.
The 3rd Angels Message has been fulfilled, even as it has ended in confusion, disappointment, and schism for the Adventist Community. Notwithstanding, the proclamation IS it’s own fulfillment, even though there are obviously larger events still to be fulfilled.
But none should despair. It is normative that each “message” ends badly. But the good news is this; when one Message terminates, another comes into view. Now that the 3rd is over, the next will replace it, even as the entire paradigm, and all 7 pillars, will be represented by the 4th and final Message.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev. 18:3 “For all the nations 1have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”
This passage is the basis for the 4th and final Message. It has NOT been fulfilled as yet, because this Message has not been developed, much less proclaimed. This is what the SDA’s must now do. They must acknowledge the termination of the 3rd Angels Message and repent for their many errors and false doctrines that were associated with it.
Then they must develop the 4th Angels Message and proclaim it, preparing the church for the Time of Trouble and the Day of Judgment. Then, with an active, credible, apocalyptic Message, the SDA’s can once again claim to be a prophetic church that has a Gospel Mission of consequence, truth, and Eternal Life.
So I say again; the 3rd Angels Message, with its eschatological message about the Sabbath, HAS BEEN FULLFILLED by the PREACHING of the Sabbath. Not by the actual manifestation of Sabbath persecution or the end of the world.
It is imperative for the Advent Community to regain its prophetic bearings and embrace its noble mission. Pluralism, Stonewalling, and Denial are not gifts of the Spirit, nor do they count as an Adventist Message.
The SDA’s must humble themselves and repent for their legions of errors, including both 1888 and Glacier View. They must return to the original and correct version of the Three Angels Messages before it is too late, and then go forward to the 4th and last Message.
The Three Angels Messages is a marvelous prophetic paradigm that must be better understood by the Laodicean church. This is what the SDA’s were supposed to do, but they have failed for all to see. But the 21st century does not have to be like the 20th or the 19th for the SDA’s. They can, and should, learn from their many past mistakes, even as they need to pay close attention to what Ellen White is really saying.
Today, the Advent Movement is confused and dying; they no longer comprehend the Prophetic Messages that define and empower them. Nor do they understand their Pioneers.
Woe to the leaders for what they have done, and to all that follow Traditional Adventism, or think Glacier View was fair or just. They have made a fatal mistake. Listen to Ellen White and repent:
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages.
Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance."
(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts; and The Great Controversy, page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.)
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
Rev. 14:8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
Rev. 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed 1in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev. 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev. 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
It is time that the Adventist Community understands how SDA theology really works. It is time for the real Pillars to expose those that are false and mythical.
"Let the truths that are the foundation of our faith be kept before the people. … We are now to understand what the pillars of our faith are, --the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step." Review and Herald, May 25, 1905.
Dr. Ford was correct at Glacier View; there is no truth to this official church teaching that the IJ is a pillar in the 1st Angels Message. Ellen White never taught this position and thus the White Estate has been caught teaching myth and fraud in the name of Ellen White, on this and many other points like the Gospel and Hermeneutics.
But Ellen White DOES NOT support what all SDA’s have been indoctrinated to believe about her and church history. And it is time that everyone knows the truth about all this.
I hope this helps all that seek truth.
Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi Tom,
Dr. Ford and yourself are delusional when it comes to Adventist theology and doctrines. The Jesuit 'rumor' was not started by people who cannot 'defend' what you call 'traditional' Adventism. I'm not saying you are because lets face it I cannot prove you are or aren't. But your actions do seem to speak for themselves. Tom, you are SO incorrect in almost everything: you don't even believe in the sanctuary message, the antichrist, the mark of the beast, your telling people to blatantly disregard the keeping of the Sabbath, I mean I could go on and on.
As for the Spirit of Prophecy (this is such clear evidence that you are confused and delusional (or if you are not either of these then you are doing this deliberately... Jesuit) On one hand you accuse the White Estate of withholding, changing her writings - but yet you will quote it when needed - I guess you can only decide what has and hasn't been changed.
Let me quote you from above: " I am not one of those anti-SDA / anti-Ellen White critics that have nothing good to say about Adventism." WELL YOU SURE SURPRISED EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD. I have never read (from you) anything good about the Adventist church. Never!
Tom I appreciate your "not holding back" attitude - yes it is too late in earth's history to be playing around. But Tom you are just a bag of wind (please pardon the expression) - you give tremendously long answers to even the most basic questions - just trying your hardest to refute everything possible. Like I've said in the past - if you don't like anything about the Adventist church - then this isn't the right church for you. If they are doing everything wrong - why do you stay?
Yes Adventism has MANY problems - doctrinal, financial, etc... We are at a crossroads (I believe we have crossed it in the wrong direction) - All this has been prophesied by EGW - if it wasn't happening then she would be a false prophet. Please read the chapter "Alpha and Omega" in Selected Messages.
Like I said Tom - you don't come across as an Adventist in any way shape or form. It's really true - you just don't.
How anyone can take advice from you is beyond my understanding. Your buddy Sal - it very funny that a openly professed Roman Catholic is always recommending you as an intelligent and progressive Adventist. He says you know what you are talking about - now Tom, why would he constantly say these things about you? As a Roman Catholic he should disagree pretty much with everything you believe also.
God Bless,
David R.
Answer David, the format on All Experts.Com is not very conducive for those that want to debate, which is what I think you really want to do. However, there are a limited number of SDA web sites where this makes more sense. In fact, for the past 7 years I have been holding conversations with the TSDA’s that think like you at:
I suggest that you go to this site and look up these recorded discussions that speak to your positions. There is an excellent search feature on this web site, and you can look up many discussions about Ellen White, 1888, Glacier View, tithe, and the IJ, etc, to better understand the issues as they relate to Adventist Reform.
Make sure you look up the threads where Clifford Goldstein is involved, because he is an SDA apologist that supports many of your positions. Why not see how well he did in a discussion with Tom Norris? You might have second thoughts when you see the outcome?
You will also find some discussions with the very same SDA’s that are claiming that Tom Norris is a Jesuit. Some of these people were so out of control that the owner of the site, JR Layman, had to banish them for their rudeness and inability to be civil. In retaliation, they went on a rampage of insults and slander that you happily endorse and repeat.
Those that claim to follow Christ are not supposed to participate in such dishonest and deliberate falsehood. I am disappointed that you would embrace anything from such a twisted site? But I understand that the TSDA’s are desperate to sustain their many myths. Desperate people take desperate positions, but neither slander nor name-calling will help their cause.
Col. 3:8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
I suggest that you educate yourself on the issues and then move to another web site that followed JR’s Adventist of Tomorrow. It is active and open for discussion and debates about Adventist Reform. It is also set up the same way as the original ATomorrow site. Here you are free to open your own thread and debate the issues as you see fit. Perhaps you will prove your positions correct? But I doubt it.
In fact, one of the recent threads, The Fraud of Traditional Adventism, in the Adventist Reform section, features one of your posts to me from All Experts. It was used to start a discussion about the very issues you are concerned about. Feel free to join and make whatever points you feel necessary. Currently there is an SDA Pastor, Don Sands, on this thread and he is trying his best to refute Adventist Reform because he thinks like you do. But he is losing the debate and needs help. You are free to give him your support as he tries to refute what Tom Norris and Dr. Ford are teaching.
As for the doctrines associated with Adventist Reform, I think you have misunderstood many things. Both Tom Norris and Dr. Ford are supporters of the historic version of the Three Angels Messages, as well as the 7 pillars that are contained within them. We both have great respect for the Advent Movement, including Ellen White. So your charges that we are not credible SDA’s is denied. It is those that follow TA that are guilty of embracing much fraud and error about Adventism, even as they deny the fundamental points that the Pioneers embraced.
The fact that you have embraced a different interpretation of Adventism from Norris and Ford is beside the point, because you have failed to prove your case that Traditional Takoma Park Adventism is valid or true. This is the real problem. You hold passionately to myth and false doctrine, even as you accuse me and Dr. Ford of being “delusional.” But unless you can sustain your position with the facts, it is all a waste of time.
In conclusion, it is time for the SDA’s to stop their double-talk and diversions and deal honestly with the issues. Until they can do this, they will continue to be angry, confused, and condemned Laodiceans that need to repent.
I hope this helps, and I encourage you to keep studying the issues and researching the facts.
Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform
