AboutTom Norris Expertise I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel.
Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.
Experience Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform.
First of all, i would like to give you some backgroundinformation about me. When i was a teenager i became a New Ager. I believed in all of the devil his lies. Often i experienced many strange things in my bed, for example, astral projection including many other things you also find in the Church of Lucifer. I became very unhappy (suicidal, agressive etc.) Demons kept flattering me, that i was greater than anybody else and that it was better for me commit suicide so i could be happier on the other side. Many times i believed this was true because of my out of body experiences i went through multiple times a week. I really felt like i was the illuminated one, and all the rest of the people were dumb sheep. Of course, back then i didn t know i was influenced of fallen angels. One night my body was asleep but my mind was fully conscious and i couldn t move. At the same time i felt the presence of supernatural beings and i wanted to wake up, but wasn t able to. Then i thought to myself "although i don t believe in the bible i ll call on Christ". Immediately i woke up, and everything was peace since then. This surprised me, because till then i believed the evolution theory explained everything. Since then i never became involved in New Age again. Over time i began to study the bible and especially the prophecies, but this was like a torture to me because i couldn t understand what it meant and i wanted to know it sooooo badly. I often became suicidal, depressed and terribly discouraged. But then after a couple of years i found the presentations of Walter Veith. Finally somebody who could explain to me the prophecies in detail. So i decided to go to an adventist church. It was a very strange experience, some were very nice to me, but i had the feeling i didn t belong there. I also believed that this was not the place where God wanted me to be. I had expected to see a place filled with true happy people, all rejoicing because after all they were the only ones who had the truth. But what i find out is that they didn t seem to care so much about that. And now i have become very sceptical towards the church, so here i have the most important questions i have to deal with:
1. If you support Dr Ford his position that after Jesus his ascension he went to the heavenly sanctuary (which is a copy of the earthly sanctuary) to the most holy place, then when did Jesus serve in the holy? That must have been before he came to this eart. But with which blood he served there?
2. You are probably very familiar with this (false) prophecy and it causes me to doubt about the integrity of Ellen White; "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said (132) the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." {1T 131.3}
Now i don t believe that this in any way could be a conditional prophecy because it was technically impossible that in the time span of her generation all the other prophecies would be fullfilled. How could for example the USA in for instance 1929 enforce sunday worship? The only explanation i can think of is this; the angel shew Ellen White a company with which she was familiar with, but the angel used this company as a model for the adventists in general. Then its meaning is valid. Some of the adventists have died, some will claim to be adventists but are subject to the last plagues and some of them will make it through the great tribulation and see the return of Jesus. What s your opinion on this?Furthermore have you ever considered the possibility that Ellen White was used by the devil?Perhaps to mask the true biblical meaning of the prophecies? Or is that overestimating the intelligence of satan?
3. My last question is for you, and also applies to me since we are in the same situation. Clearly the adventist church makes many childish mistakes and is a miserable church. However when you hear different stories about how certain pastors find the church (walter Veith, Doug Batchelor and Roger Morneau for example), then it is clear that God hasn t left the church yet. He is still working amongs them, despite their annoying imperfections. Then instead of attacking the church, shouldn t we just bear our cross, focus on Christ alone, try to ignore the false teachings and the the -no-hope-for-grace-brethtren that this produces, and try to correct error and work through the church anyway? You seem to have a very broad knowledge about the church and i agree that Ellen White shouldn t be even included in the fundamentals of the church. I believe this leadership is playing church, whereas it is supposed to spread the endtimegospel to the whole world. Often i am thinking about raising a biblical movement solely based on the bible. Then i consider the seventh day adventist movement in this spiritual warfare as fox company, and i ll raise up easy company for those believers who, without a shadow of a doubt, want to know that they are in the right church.
Please expand on my thoughts. I believe we can learn from each other, even though yesterday i told God that some things only He can show me. But hopefully you ve got some answers for me too. I really appreciate your honesty and the fact that you don t have the tendency to reduce cognitive dissonance.
Answer Many fail to understand that there is a cosmic struggle taking place between good and evil. The Gospel makes it clear that there are demons bent on the destruction of the human race, even as God has sent his son Jesus to save us and destroy the devil at the end of the world
Eph. 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
1John 3:8 The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
I am glad to see that you found the Gospel Story. Good for you to be a serious seeker for truth. Now you must follow the Word and stay close to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, -no matter what. This is the only true path to Eternal life.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Jesus Message to the Last Church
Jesus also speaks to the church through prophecy. And he has made it clear in the Laodicean Message that the last church is very wrong about most everything. So it should come as no surprise that the SDA’s have so little Gospel or Spirit. They must repent and Reform before they can be of any use to anyone.
Millions have left the church because they are not honest about the Gospel Story, and it may take many more defections for them to understand their fallen and dangerous situation. So beware the SDA’s. They are false prophets and Judiazers at this point is time. But Ellen White is not to blame.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Those that follow Jesus, must be aware that there are strong forces in the world that makes the pursuit of truth very difficult and hard to understand. This is true within the church as well as outside it. Thus you must become more familiar with the Word, and the Gospel Story, even you study to better understand prophecy.
Q1. The Sanctuary Doctrine
As for the Sanctuary Doctrine, this is an overrated topic that the SDA’s have routinely misunderstood. In fact, they have been consistently wrong about the Sanctuary ever since William Miller claimed it was the Earth in Dan 8:14. They have made numerous changes to this position and they still don’t have it correct.
Moreover, there is no salvation in any “sanctuary doctrine,” even thought the SDA’s think otherwise. But cultic confusion will not lead to Eternal life. The Christian does not need to know the details of what is going on in heaven, much less how the Heavenly Sanctuary looks, etc. For the most part, these are useless and unprofitable discussions.
The SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a great error that cannot be supported by the NT. There is no such “judgment” taking place in the Heavenly Sanctuary to see if we are good enough to be saved. Unless the SDA’s repent of this legalistic error and apologize to Dr. Ford, they will continue to self-destruct, even as they remain eternally doomed for their blindness and rebellion.
1Tim. 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
1Tim. 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
The NT teaches that Jesus went into the Most Holy place after his ascension, where God resides—in the 1st century. This is clearly taught in the NT. Some even had a vision on this point and it can be seen in the book of Acts for all to read.
Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
Acts 7:56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
The Jews did not like this new “Sanctuary Doctrine.” They did not believe that Jesus went to Heaven, much less that he was standing next to God in the Heavenly Holy Place. They liked their present Sanctuary doctrine that featured their earthly Temple and tithe supported Priesthood.
Acts 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.
Acts 7:58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Acts 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
What a pity that the SDA’s have also persecuted those, like Dr. Ford, that have told them the truth about the Sanctuary. They have acted just like the unbelieving Jews in the 1st century, even as they continue to reject the truth that Jesus went into the most holy place in the 1st century. Not in 1844.
The SDA’s are very much like the Jews in that they have repudiated the Gospel and embraced legions of myth, tradition, and Old Covenant error.
Q2. Ellen White’s Statement about the Second Coming;
"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."
{1T 131.3}
It is a great mistake to think Ellen White must be rated like a baseball player’s batting average in order to determine if she had the Gifts of the Spirit. This idea that she is supposed to be predicting the future, like a genie in a bottle, is all wrong. This is not what her gifts were about, nor is this any way to examine Ellen White to see if she had the Spirit of God.
This idea about people remaining alive until the Second Coming was not something that Ellen White invented. In fact, she is quoting an Angel in her vision. She is repeating the words of the Spirit. But regardless, the question is this: would heaven send such a message to Ellen White? Was this statement authorized and approved by the Spirit, or was Ellen White making things up and taking eschatological views against the Word? Let’s see:
A. The NT & the Second Coming
You may be surprised to know that this very same problem that you cite has its roots in the NT. Thus the apostles wrestled with the same issues about the timing of the Second Coming and who would remain alive to witness this great event.
John 21:21 So Peter seeing him *said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”
John 21:22 Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
John 21:23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”
Notwithstanding this confusion, Matt, Mark, and Luke all contain remarks from Jesus that could be understood to mean that the Second Coming would take place in the 1st century.
Luke 9:27 I tell you the truth: there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Matt. 23:36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
But of course this did not happen. Does this mean that Jesus is a false prophet? Hardly.
The fact of the matter is that NT eschatology is always viewed as being close at hand. Thus every generation is put on notice that the end is near, and will take place in their lifetime. This is what the Spirit teaches in every age.
James 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
1Pet. 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things, which are written in it; for the time is near.
Thus, the Spirit, in every age presses the point that the Second Coming can/will take place in their day, even as Jesus teaches that all generations must be alert and ready for the end of the world.
From God’s perspective this is true, because he views 1,000 of our Earth days as if it were 1 day. Thus, the Spirit makes the same point to all those in every generation.
2Pet. 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
So what you see Ellen White saying is very consistent with the NT and the Spirit. She is stating a normative and Spirit approved viewpoint.
B. The Second Coming-- Near in Every Age
Because sinners only have a limited time to embrace the Gospel before they die, the Gospel is always presented in an eschatological framework in order to save as many as possible. If the Kingdom of God were portrayed as a distant possibility, many would naturally ignore and delay their decisions.
2Cor. 6:1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain —
2Cor. 6:2 for He says,
“AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,
AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”
Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION” —
Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Luke 21:30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
Luke 21:31 “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
James 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Rev. 22:10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
The Second Coming is always presented as very near, and this is what Ellen White was also doing under the influence of the Spirit. Thus proving that she is working with the Spirit and not against it, which would make her a fraud.
C. The Second Coming- A Strategic Event of War
Another reason why the Second Coming is always presented as near, -is to throw off the enemy. Why? Because in this cosmic war between good and evil, the Second Coming represents the literal invasion of enemy territory. It is like D-day in WWII.
While Christians typically view the Eschaton from their point of view, there is far more taking place than many have assumed. God is at war with a formidable, cosmic enemy, who controls Earth, and this point should never be overlooked. One rule of warfare is to keep the enemy off guard, and a proper view of eschatology accomplishes this objective.
Thus God will keep secret his invasion plans in order to confuse the enemy and keep him off balance, even as it appears that this dramatic invasion maneuver can take place in any age. This is another important reason why NT eschatology is always presented as about to be fulfilled at any time. It is to confuse the enemy and keep him off guard.
Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt. 24:43 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt. 25:13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.
Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
1Th. 5:6 so then let us not asleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
1Pet. 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
In fact, the date of God’s invasion of Earth is so classified that no one on earth, and few in heaven, including Jesus, know this date.
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
Acts 1:7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
This strategy of hiding the date of the Second Coming is part of the plan of God. And so too is the fact that correct eschatology is always presented as being close at hand.
Matt. 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Rev. 12:12 “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
D. Conclusion:
Ellen Whites statement in question mirrors the NT, and fits within the proper eschatological protocols. Thus she reflects the same Spirit that has promoted the very same statements about eschatological nearness in the NT. She is not making a specific prediction, but rather, she is being used by the Spirit to promote the normative view about the nearness of the Second Coming to those around her.
Consequently, such a statement shows that she is following the Spirit on this point. Which is the opposite of claiming that she is a fraud or that she is taking views in opposition to the Word or the Spirit.
When her eschatological statement is viewed in the context of the NT, there is no problem as you imagine. In fact, what she is saying lines up perfectly with the Word and the Spirit, even though at first glance it appears otherwise.
Q3. Should the SDA Church Be Excused for False Doctrine? Should the Adventist Community “ignore the false teachings” of the leaders and “try to correct error” within the church?
First off, how can any doctrinal “corrections” take place if the problems are “ignored”? The only way to make the necessary corrections is to confront the issues and deal with them in an honest and transparent manner.
Second, your assumption that God is working through such men as Doug Batchlor or others you listed is not valid. These SDA leaders embrace, defend, and promote one Gospel error after another. They are dishonest men who refuse to debate the issues or repent. It is time that people understand that these Adventist Pharisees are not being honest about the NT or church history.
I dare any of them to have a debate with Dr. Ford or Tom Norris. It would only take a few minutes to prove to all that they are full of error and false doctrine. (Which is why they refuse to have an honest and public discussion about the issues.)
Third, the NT clearly teaches that Gospel error is not to be tolerated within the church. This is especially true when it comes to the leaders. This is what the book of Galatians is all about.
In fact, Paul has given an apostolic command to all about how Gospel error is to be treated in the church. It is to be bluntly confronted, and the person promoting a false Gospel is to be identified by name and condemned in public for all to see.
Let all embrace Paul’s point of view:
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Those IN THE CHURCH that “distort” the Gospel Story do not get a free pass. They must be publicly confronted and condemned by those that understand the Gospel. If Peter and James did not get a pass, the SDA leaders don’t get one either. Thus Doug Batchlor, Clifford Goldstein, and a long list of SDA’s, including every Pastor and Bible Teacher need to be confronted with their errors for all to see.
The SDA’s are not being “straightforward” about the Gospel or church history. They have full of error, myth, and doctrinal fraud.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel…
Paul took action against those leaders that were promoting a false and distorted Gospel in the church, and so too must we. This is the clear will of Heaven. Who dares say otherwise?
Do not be fooled by the slick words and pretty graphics from the SDA apologists. While they pretend to be sincere, they are wrong nonetheless. In fact, they are wolves in sheep’s clothing, and no one should think otherwise. They must be confronted and condemned, not ignored or enabled by the Adventist Community.
Fourth: The Pre- Advent Judgment of the Church condemns the SDA’s, even as it does the same to all others. Thus the LM demands that the church admit its guilt and repent. But how can a denomination understand it is guilty if everyone pretends that they have no error?
The position of the SDA’s that they have all the truth, and that they understand the Bible better than all others is absurd and ludicrous. There is zero truth to such a blasphemous and impossible claim that denies what Jesus is saying about the Laodicean Church.
The SDA’s don’t even follow the teachings of Ellen White, but yet they pretend otherwise. They are the greatest liars in the Protestant Church and it is time that everyone knows how rebellious and wicked they really are.
Those that stand up and condemn the SDA’s for their many false doctrines are doing the work of God. They are following Paul’s example, even as they are paying attention to John’s Prophecy about the Laodicean Church in Rev 3.
While the Advent Movement contains much truth, their correct doctrines are buried beneath a mountain of myth, tradition, and many false doctrines. Thus the corrupt and divided SDA’s need to understand how wrong they have been all these years and repent. No one should enable them or support their many errors until they repent and reform.
I hope this information is helpful to you as you continue to study the Word and move forward in your understanding of the Gospel and Prophecy.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform
