Seventh-Day Adventists/7th Day Sabbath Reform

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Question
QUESTION: Mr. Norris,

I was born and raised in the SDA church but since my teen years, I have drifted apart. I am 36 years old, remarried and trying to raise two boys, 13 and 7. I started looking for a Church to attend and in that search started wondering what day we should go or does that even matter. It seems through my studies that a lot of people have left the SDA church due to conflicts with EGW teachings, SDA doctrines and the fact that the Gospel says Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore we rest in him leading me to believe the day doesn’t matter as much.

I’ve read some of your blogs and articles and would love to get your opinion on this.

Regards
Zack Johns

ANSWER: Mr. Norris,

I was born and raised in the SDA church but since my teen years, I have drifted apart. I am 36 years old, remarried and trying to raise two boys, 13 and 7.

I started looking for a Church to attend and in that search started wondering what day we should go or does that even matter.

It seems through my studies that a lot of people have left the SDA church due to conflicts with EGW teachings, SDA doctrines and the fact that the Gospel says Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore we rest in him leading me to believe the day doesn’t matter as much.

I’ve read some of your blogs and articles and would love to get your opinion on this.

Regards
Zack Johns
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Today, Adventism is in a great crisis.  Millions have “drifted” and run away from the SDA’s over the past 30 years, and this ongoing process is still taking place today.  People primarily leave because they correctly reject legalism and the Investigative Judgment, as well as how Ellen White is used, and other errors.
Your story is very common.  You are part of the legions of former SDA’s who remain outside of the organized church.  I too, am part of this disappointed crowd that wishes for something better.  

At this point, the SDA’s deserve to be condemned, not supported.  So I cannot recommend that anyone join their cultic confusion or embrace their false view of the Sabbath and church organization.  Such errors will cause more harm than good.

Why So Many Leave
http://www.nonsda.org/sda_losing_members.shtml

Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

Former SDA Group
http://www.formeradventist.com/stories/index.html

More Members Leaving -UTube
http://www.rejoicetube.com/media/4372/Former_Seventh_Day_Adventist_Testimonies/

More Members Leaving & Why
http://www.sabbatismos.com/

People need religion in their lives.  Not only because of our mortality, but because children need moral guidance, even as everyone needs hope and peace of mind.  So the quest for religion is strong in the human soul, even in our modern age.  

However, the problem is this: religion has become big business, including the Adventist Denomination, which is worth about $30 Billion.  And that is small when compared to many others like the Mormons.

Today, religion is primarily about money, myth, and entertainment.  The search for Gospel truth and salvation is not taking place.  This is especially true in America, where all have the freedom to follow their own views, regardless how strange, false, or absurd.  Thus there is a wide choice of religious views available, most all of them worthless.

Is there a true church today?  Or is it all a lot of worthless noise based on greed, conceit, and false doctrine?  Does doctrine even matter today?

Eternal Life will only be obtained by closely following the Gospel teachings of Jesus.  So, yes, doctrine is very important to our salvation, and thus the Sabbath is also important to understand properly.  If fact, to understand the Gospel correctly, is to understand the Gospel Sabbath, even as a false Sabbath underscores a false view of the Gospel.  

Today, the church, meaning all denominations, is full of double-talk and error.  Not one church teaches the correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath.  This was prophesied long ago:

2Tim. 3:1  But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

How can one find the genuine Gospel, and thus the correct Sabbath, in such a competitive, dishonest environment?  How can anyone one find truth today?

Answer: John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Thank heaven we can all find truth without having to join a denomination.  Each of us can go directly to the Word and find the Gospel.  There, in the NT, we can meet the genuine Christ and find Eternal Life, without having to pay tithe to a corrupt bureaucracy or be forced to follow a chain of false doctrine.

When the Word is treated correctly, the question will be not be:  “What is the correct Sabbath?”  But “what does Christ about the Sabbath?”  

It is the teaching of Christ, in the Gospels, that defines and explains the Gospel.  Here is where all must go to find truth and salvation and the Sabbath.  

Moreover, those who embrace the Gospel through the Word are part of the church, priests of God, individually answering directly to Christ, their high priest.  They do not need to be “members” on anyone’s earthly books because their names are written in the lamb’s book of Life.

1Cor. 12:27  Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No True Denomination

First off, there is no true or correct church today, least of all the SDA’s.  They are full of false doctrine, myth, and great arrogance.  Even their greatest doctrine, the Sabbath, is wrong, and so too their view of the Judgment and even the Lord’s Supper.  So while there is great doctrinal truth in the Advent Movement, there is more error than truth at present.

This sad state of affairs is what the real doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment addresses in Rev 3: 14.  

Today, every denomination is called to repent of their false doctrine, even as Christ has judged them all blind and lost.  This explains why no church correctly understands the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ, -including the SDA’s.  

Rev. 3:14  “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:  The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15  ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

While the Adventists are correct to teach that Sunday is a fraud, and that the 7th day is the only day for the weekly NC Sabbath, they still do not have the right understanding of the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.  

The SDA Community must realize that there is more to the doctrine of the Sabbath than just the day.  Even the Jews that killed Christ had the correct day, so this is not enough.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Jesus, our Sabbath Rest

As for this new Sabbath theory, (since the 1970’s), strangely called New Covenant Theology, it is absurd.  This idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath, so that he could remove it, and then turn it into an “Everyday” spiritual rest- for those that meet on Sunday, is not supported by the NT.  In fact, Jesus never claimed to be anyone’s Sabbath rest, nor did he teach a “resting,” non working Sabbath.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

While many former SDA’s embraced this alternative double-talk, it is not the answer to the error of the SDA Sabbath, much less for the Sunday Lord’s Day.  So the search for the genuine Sabbath must still go on for most all.  But the answers are now in the public domain for all to see.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Like I said, when the Gospel is fully understood, so too the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, - the head theologian of the church.  At some point, the Spirit will bring together those who are serious about Gospel Truth and a new denomination will be launched, even a new reformation.  

At some point, the NT teachings of Jesus will become better understood, including what he teaches about the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath.  Then the repentant church will go forward as show in Rev 18.  This has not taken place as yet.

Let all pray for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community and the entire church.  Let all seek Gospel truth directly from the Word, standing firm against all error and false doctrine.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Tom - thanks for the response.Unfortunately, most of this info I already had.  I do appreicate the time you spent answering my question but I am still in search of a church to take my famiy to. I have started to look into non-denominationl churches but most of them worship on Sunday. If you have any thoughts on non-denominational chuches I would be interested to here.

Also, was wondering if you have every heard of one flock ministeries?
http://www.oneflockministries.org/ourstory/lettertofamilyandfriends.html

Pastor Greg was a long time SDA that now Pastors a non-denominational church in PA. In his letter to his family and friends he explains how he came to the Jesus Fullfillment theory in his Biblical journey. Was wondring your thoughts on it.

Thanks,
Zack

Answer
Zack, I suggest that you research the local community churches in your area.  No doubt they are all going to be Sunday based, as the doctrine of the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath is still virtually unknown.  So your options are limited in that regard.

However, if Pastor Greg were in your area, I would not hesitate to recommend his church to your family, regardless of the fact that they meet on Sunday.

I went to the website and read his very moving story. It is one that I have heard many, many times. He seems like a genuine Christian, someone who is serious about the search for Gospel truth.  He also has a healthy respect for the Advent Movement, even recommending that it be reformed.  So he has a good Gospel attitude.

http://www.oneflockministries.org/ourst … iends.html

Here are some of his comments and my response to them:

Pastor Greg:  Our primary reason for becoming Adventist years ago was our deep desire to serve the Lord. Both Paula and I joined this church, (myself by re-baptism in my college days), and became SDAs because we believed it was the denomination that most closely followed God’s word.

Tom Norris:  This is a good reason to join any church.  To follow the Word has been the Protestant cry since the days of the Reformation.  Adventism was a Protestant paradigm from the start.  They discovered modern eschatology by studying the Word and correcting the prevailing 19th century myths about the 2nd Coming.

Today, thanks to Adventism, every church and denomination embraces a literal, pre-millennial, 2nd Advent.  The Adventists discovered this basic eschatological platform that everyone correctly follows today.  However, few, if any, show appreciation to the Adventists.

More than that, the Adventists developed a very sophisticated view of eschatology, one which has been passed down through the SDA’s.  But the SDA’s misunderstood the Gospel and the law, as well as the cutting edge theology of the Advent Pioneers.  This explains why the Advent Movement is floundering.  They have lost sight of the fundamentals.

Pastor Greg:  We saw in Adventism a group of people who were not afraid to follow their convictions even if they were not popular positions to take in our culture.

Tom Norris: The Adventists were very sincere at one time.  However, the Gospel is not a popularity contest.  Conviction and sincerity are not proof of truth.  Many confused cults, like the Mormons, have strong convictions that their brand of religion is true, but such views do not make false doctrine true.  We all know that.

In addition, what may seem important at one point in history, is not so within another context.  For example, when the SDA’s were fighting to promote the 7th day Sabbath, they did so in the face of great opposition from the Sunday forces who were trying to pass a National Sunday law.  Such a struggle validated their views and increased their sincerity, but in the end, they were wrong about many things, including that Sunday will start the Tribulation.  So much for being sincere.

Today, there is no such war over which day is the Sabbath.  There are no fears of blue laws or persecution.  Thus the doctrine of the Sabbath needs to be examined in the context of what Jesus teaches.  Not in the context of 19th century conflicts and errors.

Those who are really sincere will examine the evidence honestly and objectively, admitting when they are wrong.  The SDA’s today are very much like the 1st century Jews, who were also neither honest nor sincere.

Pastor Greg:  We became part of the church primarily because we believed Sabbath observance was required and was honoring to God.

Tom Norris:  Both the Protestant and Catholic Church promote the Sunday Sabbath as our moral duty. The RC’s teach that the Sunday lord’s day is the New Covenant Sabbath.

The Pilgrims came to America so that they could properly observe a very strict Sunday Sabbath, and thus strict Sabbath keeping took hold in the new world, eventually growing into a national ecumenical campaign of Sunday sacredness, to which the SDA’s protested.

The church, meaning all denominations, Catholic and Protestant, have always met on a weekly basis, and they still do.   So the Sabbath doctrine cannot be separated from Christian religion or practice.  It has always been part of Judaism and the church, and so it shall ever be.

The SDA’s came along and took issue with the DAY, even as they also viewed this doctrine in an eschatological manner, which had not been done before.  Because the Bible clearly teaches a 7th day Sabbath, the SDA’s were able to build a denomination on this primary point.

However, because the SDA’s misunderstood the law and the Gospel, they also misunderstood the genuine 7th day Sabbath.  While they were correct that Sunday is a fraud, they were incorrect to teach that the Old Covenant doctrine of the 7th day is part of New Covenant doctrine.  The OC Sabbath cannot be part of the NC.  It was abolished.

The 7th day Sabbath of Christ

Jesus refutes the OC Sabbath, which is why the Jews became so upset with him.  He does not teach a resting, non-working doctrine of the 7th day, as the SDA’s claim.  Rather, he teaches the opposite:  an active, working, 7th day Sabbath, one that is not subject to the law of the 4th commandment.   Here is the true doctrine of the NC Sabbath.  The SDA’s were only partially correct.

There is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, and the SDA’s came close to getting it right, at least as far as the Day is concerned.  Now it is time to complete Sabbath Reform and fully understand the Gospel Sabbath and the last day events.

Adventism must advance to complete its’ mission to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming.

Pastor Greg:  We were also attracted to the healthful lifestyle. We believed that Adventism had much to offer the world. We still believe much of what the church teaches.

Tom Norris:  It is true that the SDA’s developed an excellent understanding of Health.  However, they no longer understand or follow these views.  Nor was Jesus a vegetarian.  So here is another point where the modern Adventists have failed.

Moreover, the NT clearly teaches that food is not sinful.  It is wrong for the SDA’s to teach that there are unclean foods in the New Covenant.  There is no such thing.

Mark 7:17  When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.

Mark 7:18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and 1is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Pastor Greg:  While Paula and I do not believe the Adventist position, that the Sabbath is morally binding, is biblical, we do believe that it is a healthy way to live and has merit for spiritual growth. This error needs to be corrected.

Tom Norris:  The SDA’s have embraced the OC view of the Sabbath, which is not binding on any Christian.  Nor is it healthy for spiritual growth.  What they should have done was embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is an active Sabbath, not a resting one.  It is Jesus’ view of the 7th day Sabbath that is binding on all Christians, not what Moses or the SDA’s teach.

Pastor Greg:  We value and support the concept of Sabbath rest. We enjoy the spiritual benefits of taking a day that is dedicated to God and family. We love taking a media fast for a day and letting the noise and clamor cease. This is a part of our spiritual lives that we hold dear and will always treasure.

Tom Norris:  It is the OC Sabbath that supports rest, quiet, and inactivity, not the NC Sabbath of Christ.  The SDA view of the Sabbath is OC; it follows the Puritan version, which is also WRONG, regardless of the day.  The Gospel Sabbath does not include all these OC rules about not working (or watching TV or going to a restaurant, etc.), on the 7th day.  There are no such regulations on the genuine Sabbath of Christ.
I realize this is a shocking and very confusing view.  But this is the view of Christ.  He stunned and divided the Jews with his Reformed view of the Gospel Sabbath.  It was shocking way back then, and it is still shocking today.  Why?  Because so few understand the genuine Gospel of Christ, while many more understand law, law, and law.

Pastor Greg:  But to insist that it (Sabbath) always be on Saturday, or that it is mandated by scripture, is adding to the Word of God an unnecessary requirement for new believers. It constitutes a stumbling block that is not necessary. It gets in the way of many coming to Jesus. We believe that we should remove all obstacles from the path of the true seeker except the scandal of the cross. This is the heart of the message of Galatians and the rest of the New Testament…

Tom Norris:  There is only one NC Sabbath for the church, and it is only on the 7th day.  Not Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, or Everyday.
Moreover, there are no “stumbling blocks” with the Gospel Sabbath because there are no rules against doing any kind of good works on the Sabbath of Christ.  The Moral law of the 4th Commandment does not apply to the New Covenant Sabbath, which is the opposite of what the Jews and the SDA’s teach.

The NC Sabbath contains an “exemption” from the Law, protecting all Christians who work on the 7th day from the guilt or sin of Sabbath breaking.  Thus, the Sabbath of Christ is a living metaphor about the Gospel because we are declared innocent, even though we are in fact lawbreakers.

The OC, 7th day Sabbath is not to be followed by any Christian.  The 4th Commandment has been trumped by the Gospel teachings of Christ, which include his NC, reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Pastor Greg:  Paula and I have a deep love and concern for the Adventist church. We have not been hurt or mistreated. We do not hold animosity toward anyone in the church. The denomination has been very good to us. We do not have any horror stories of mistreatment by leadership as some have. We are grateful for Adventism and what it has meant to our family and our growth in the Lord.

Tom Norris:  Most people leave the SDA church because of doctrine.  While the leaders often deny this fact, it is true.  Those that have left were correct to do so, as the SDA’s have not been honest with the Gospel, much less church history.  I salute those who leave.  It would have been much easier for Pastor Greg to follow the SDA crowd and enjoy the financial benefits.  Many SDA pastors have done this, even though they knowingly support many false doctrines in exchange.

Pastor Greg:  I was amazed to discover that the New Testament does not teach Sabbath the way I thought it did.

Tom Norris:  It is amazing that everyone, in all denominations, have been taught a false doctrine of the Sabbath.  Regardless if one is a Sunday keeper or SDA, they all have an incorrect view of the Sabbath.  This fact also applies to this new spin about Christ fulfilling the Sabbath so that he could remove it.

Today, the Gospel Sabbath of Christ is badly misunderstood, because the Gospel is so misunderstood.  Only when the New Covenant is properly comprehended, so too the NC Sabbath.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Pastor Greg:  I learned from Colossians 2:16-17, Galatians 4:10, Romans 14:5-6, and Hebrews 3-4, that Sabbath was an institution that pointed forward to Jesus and therefore was no longer binding on Christians.

Tom Norris:  Like so many SDA’s, Pastor Greg went from one false view of the Sabbath to another.  But at least this new view of the Sabbath does not promote legalism and the IJ.  However it does feature very poor hermeneutics, as well as myth and error.

While the NT does not support the SDA Sabbath, it also does not support the confused views of the Sunday keepers or the Everyday Sabbath crowd, with their “fulfilled” Sabbath.   For starters, the doctrine of the Sabbath was not something that was to be fulfilled; it pointed back to the creation of the world.  This is how Christ always viewed the Sabbath.  The Bible does not teach that the Sabbath pointed to Christ, or that he was to fulfill the Sabbath.

While Jesus did make it clear that the OC, non-working Sabbath was “no longer binding” on Christians, he also articulated the NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is binding.  It was so radical that it led directly to his death.  It is this NC Sabbath of Christ, in all four Gospels, that must be recaptured and understood by the last church.  And it is only on the 7th day.  So the SDA’s have helped move truth forward, even if they have fallen into a ditch in the process.

See:

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Pastor Greg:  The New Testament points to a Person (Jesus) as the true Sabbath, not a day. I discovered that The Law is reinterpreted, in Christ, for all believers.

Tom Norris:  Jesus never claimed to be anyone’s “Sabbath rest.”  In fact, he never said or taught any such thing.  Jesus acknowledged, defended, and reformed the Sabbath, but he never taught that he was its’ fulfillment.  Jesus is not a day any more than the Sabbath is about a person.  Jesus was not Lord of himself, or Lord of the fulfilled Sabbath.  He was Lord of the NC 7th day Sabbath, which he reformed in all four Gospels.

While Jesus gives salvation and spiritual rest to those who ask, this is not associated with any day in the Gospels, much less the 7th.   In fact, Jesus rarely uses the word “rest” in any context, as a word study of the Gospels will prove.  So how can a concept, never uttered by Christ, become new doctrine for the church today?

Jesus never claimed to be the true Sabbath or any Sabbath, much less our “rest.” This is just trite myth, easily exposed as such by studying the Gospels.

Moreover, when Jesus was alive on earth, he never rested on the Sabbath, nor did he refrain from work or tell anyone else to stop working on the 7th day.  Thus the Gospel facts disprove this popular idea that Jesus is our Sabbath rest.   It may sound nice, but it is not true.  Jesus is not a like any day, nor does he promote a resting, passive, Sabbath.

Pastor Greg:  The New Testament makes very clear which portions of The Law have carried over in Christ and which have not.

Tom Norris:  Jesus did not teach lawlessness, even as Paul teaches that love in the fulfillment of the law.  In fact, the class of Christians that are banished from Heaven at the Judgment, are precisely those who deny the moral law.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Christians are not under the Moral, this is a clear NT teaching.  However, this does not mean the Moral law has been abolished, or that the Sabbath is no longer a memorial to the creation of the world, or that we can now murder, steal, and lie, etc.

The Christian is to be under the law (teachings) of Christ, at all times, which is superior to the Moral law.  In fact, Jesus teaches all 10 Commandments, and thus we are “under” his teachings about the Law in every part of our lives, including the NC Sabbath, which he reforms by subordinating the 4th commandment to his authority as Lord of the Sabbath.

Listen to Paul explain the relationship between the law of Christ and the Moral law.  Note he is not in a lawless state, nor under the Moral Law.

1Cor. 9:19  For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is predicated upon the law of Christ and the Words of Christ.  It is not the same as the “schoolmaster” or “tutor” Sabbath of Moses, which is why the Jews became so angry with Christ.

Gal. 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Sabbath teaching directly contradicts and overrides the 4th commandment, showing the power and authority of Christ, the co-creator of the world and inventor of the original Sabbath.  The church is to follow the active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, a doctrine that is virtually unknown today.

Pastor Greg: Finally, I found that the day of worship is NOT the final test of loyalty to God, rather the test is a full surrender to Jesus Christ sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Tom Norris:  The SDA’s are wrong to teach that the Tribulation will start because of a National Sunday law. While it made sense to the Battle Creek SDA’s in the 19th century, --and there were attempts to pass such a law in Congress (in 1888), the law failed and so too did this major ecumenical push for Sunday laws.  Regardless, the NT does not teach any such thing.  This point is flat our wrong.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

However, there will be a great Tribulation followed by persecution, just like in the early church.  So what is the final test at the end of the world?

Answer:  to follow the genuine Christ, and not the many counterfeits.  One way to know the original Christ at the end of time is by his controversial reformed, 7th day Sabbath, a doctrine that is unknown to Laodicea at this point in time.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Those who believe Christ and his Word will also embrace his NEW COVENANT view of the Sabbath, which he claims was given to him from God the Father.   

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19  Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Pastor Greg:  Virtually all of our maturing process as Christians has taken place within the Adventist church. We have been blessed deeply by our association with the church. But God is calling us to keep moving. I believe that is His intention for the Adventist church as well. There truly was merit in what the Adventist pioneers believed. They were adamant about not becoming another denomination but insisted in calling themselves a movement. By this they were indicating that if they discovered more truth, they would follow it and leave the mistakes behind.

Tom Norris:  The Advent Movement is supposed to go forward from one level to the next higher level, embracing more truth in the process.  It has now gone through three levels, the last being known as the Third Angels Message, which they went through TWICE.  Both have terminated in disaster and schism.   Today, we are witnessing the end of the modern 3rd Angels Message, which has crashed and burned for all to see.

The SDA’s stopped searching for truth in 1980.  This is when the “movement” died and pluralism became the new normal.  This is when a false, IJ based Creed was forced on all Adventists.  Those who understood the Gospel the most, like Dr. Ford, were exiled from the church for daring to tell the truth, and thus the floodgates of schism were opened.  Leaving those that remained in the church to support great error and confusion.

The SDA’s must repent for rejecting the Gospel at Glacier View.  They must confess their errors about the IJ and Ellen White or they are doomed.  They must also repent for the fact that thy do not have the 7th day Sabbath fully correct.

Repentance is the only way for the Advent Movement to go forward to the next level, which is known as the 4th Angels Message.  Here is where every former SDA Pastor should lead his flock.  This final Advent Message is not only Gospel based and eschatologically credible, it is the point and purpose of the Three Angels Messages.

It is time for Adventism to move forward once again and warn the world of Judgment and calamity to come.  It is time for the final Reformation of the church to begin, just before the great Tribulation strikes the earth.

Rev. 18:1  After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Pastor Greg:  The Adventist church has much to offer. If it would keep moving, I believe it could have a tremendous impact on the world as a part of God’s remnant church at large. But in a very real sense, Adventism must face it’s dark side. It must keep moving and allow God to mold and make it into what He intends it to be.

Tom Norris:  Adventism is full of eschatological insight and light.  In fact, the Three Angels Messages is still the most sophisticated and cutting edge theology available.  The fact that the SDA’s have misunderstood their Fundamental pillars and have gone corrupt is beside the point.  The Adventist Apocalyptic, when correctly understood, is the proper path for the Laodicean Church.

As for the dark side of doctrinal error; both Judaism and the Apostolic church had a “dark side.”  The Jews rebelled against God and then also rejected the Gospel.  They were destroyed as a result and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.

The apostolic church also had a dark side.  It became divided over the Law and the Gospel, eventually embracing a false version of religion, which became the RCC.  The church went dark for a long time, needing a Gospel Reformation to wake it up.

So the fact that the SDA’s have gone bad is normative.   All religion goes bad.  The “dark side” is part of the human predicament.  But so too is Gospel Reformation.  The latter is needed now.  Past error is no excuse for present wrong.

Let all understand that the Advent Movement, which is defined by the term Three Angels Messages, can go forward without the SDA’s or their organization.  The SDA’s did not start or develop the first two Angels Messages; they only added the 3rd Angels Message.  They do not have to go forward to the final phase, and their leaders have made it clear that they do not want to go forward to the final Gospel based message of Rev 18.

So be it.  While it would be better for them to repent and embrace Gospel Reform, the will of God will be done regardless.  Others will step forward to complete the mission of the Advent Movement, pushing it forward to the 4th Angels Message; preparing the church for what is to come.

The Three Angels Messages cannot be copyrighted, nor can the final Gospel message be suppressed or controlled by the corrupt Adventists.  The next phase of the Advent Movement (4th Angels Message) does not depend on the bureaucracy of the SDA’s, much less on their many errors and manipulated history.  Nor does anyone’s salvation depend on what this rebellious organization does.

History teaches that as the Advent Movement moved forward and developed, new leaders came forward and so too new denominations.  The SDA Pioneers broke away from William Miller over doctrine, starting what they called the 3rd Angels Message, which is Seventh-day Adventism.  They had great success for a time, but then they rejected the Gospel in1888 and self-destructed for all to see.  (Then they regrouped in Takoma Park and repeated the same mistakes.)

No doubt the 4th Angels Message will also follow the same pattern, and thus the final Advent message will go forward regardless.  In other words, a new more honest Advent denomination will come into existence, and then the Movement will go forward.  It is the discovery and correction of error that moves Adventism forward, and now is the time for this reform process to take place once again.

Pastor Greg:  We hope that someday the Adventist church will face some of these issues. We pray that one day soon there will be a courageous move made on the part of the leadership to reexamine the “pillars of the faith” and ask God to give them the courage to study openly, without risk, the fundamental teachings and see what the scriptures teach without worrying what will happen if there is a discovery that there have been some mistakes along the way. It takes courage to face difficult issues. But courage is one of the qualities that Adventists have been noted for in the past. We are confident that the same quality still exists.

Tom Norris:  The Denomination has rejected numerous opportunities to tell the truth and repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.  But they refuse; even when the evidence has been piled high and millions have walked out the door as a consequence.  It is no longer realistic for anyone to think the SDA’s have any intention of apologizing for their many errors, and thus they will remain blind and confused, knowingly embracing false pillars and much error.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ed-EGW.htm

If Adventism is to go forward, it must be by those who have left the legalistic SDA’s and embraced the Gospel.   History shows that those who leave -- start the next “message.”  This is what the SDA Pioneers did.  So where are the new, Advent Pioneers of today?  Where are those with Gospel courage and eschatological insight?

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235

Pastor Greg: We do not think the church will suffer long term from such a study. Perhaps the image that the Adventists are the one and only remnant church would fall by the wayside.

Tom Norris:  There is only one Gospel and one New Covenant Sabbath, but the SDA’s have not recovered either.  The SDA’s were very presumptuous to think they have discovered all truth so as to instruct others.  They have not.  They are full of error, starting with the Sabbath.

Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Pastor Greg:  Perhaps the Investigative Judgement would hit the theological graveyard too.

Tom Norris.  The IJ must be totally repudiated as false doctrine and great error.  It was never a “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, much less the 1st as the modern SDA’s teach.  The IJ is a dead doctrine for all that follow Christ.

In addition, the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment must be embraced, which is found in Rev 3:14.  There is no PAJ of the church in the OT, only in the NT.

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Pastor Greg:  There might be a whole new approach to the Sabbath.

Tom Norris:  A new doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath has been discovered in the NT.  It has been there all along.  It represents a “whole new approach” to the Sabbath for both the SDA’s and Sunday keepers.  It is a Gospel based, paradigm shifting doctrine for the Advent Movement and the Laodicean Church.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Pastor Greg:  It might be that Sabbath would be a suggested spiritual discipline rather than a moral ought.

Tom Norris:  The Gospel Sabbath is a day for congregational fellowship and praise as well as good works.  It is not about the Law.  It is not a day of rest or refraining from activity like in the OT.  Rather, it is a day of Gospel freedom and innocence, where good works, (working or play) can be done without guilt.

The NC Sabbath is a joyful, weekly, day for praise, fellowship, and good works.  And so shall the Lord’s Day shall ever be.

Pastor Greg:  The name “Seventh-day Adventist” might be reduced to just “Adventist” so as to keep the focus on Jesus rather than the law.

Tom Norris:  The term 7th day is very important and correct.  This is the only day for the Gospel Sabbath and the true Lord’s Day.  But it is not a day of rest as many assume, but of good works.

Pastor Greg:  Healthful living might be taught from a suggested lifestyle approach rather than a requirement that gets confused with salvation.
Tom Norris:  The health Message is not for salvation, but for the benefit and healing of mankind.  But the SDA’s hardly understand or embrace any health message today.  The health message, correctly understood, is a fundamental “pillar.”

In addition, there is no such doctrine as clean or unclean foods in the NC.  It is no longer a sin for anyone to eat anything, which was not the case in the OT.  While certain foods may be bad for health, food is not sinful in the NC era.  Period.

Mark 7:14  After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:
Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
Mark 7:16 [“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]
Mark 7:17  When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mark 7:18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Pastor Greg:  Maybe the church could become known as a church that truly is based on the Bible and the Bible alone.

Tom Norris:  This is how the Advent Movement started.  William Miller exposed the fact that every church was teaching a false view of eschatology.  He proved by the Word that the 2nd Coming would take place before the millennium, and that this event would destroy the world.  The fact that they had the date wrong is beside the point, the Adventists were correct about the doctrine of the 2nd Coming, which is why every church now teaches what Miller discovered.

Biblical-based doctrine is fundamental to the Protestant Faith and the Advent Movement.  Which is why the IJ, as well as tithing and a hierarchy must be repudiated because it is against the Word.  The local church can only be organized as a congregational model, even as the individuals in it are the primary beneficiaries of the Gospel.  Not the leaders.  The church is to take care of its members, just like in the NT.

Acts 4:34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales

Acts 4:35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

Pastor Greg:  Perhaps there might even be some apologies made to those Christian groups that have been cut down and abused by the “evangelists” who called them “Apostates” and “Babylon”!

Tom Norris:  The genuine Pre Advent Judgment demands “zealous repentance” from the SDA’s.  So yes, they will have to make many apologies, including a big one to Dr. Ford.  There is a long list of errors that the SDA’s must acknowledge and repudiate. Including their bad attitude.  Others also have their own list of sins and false doctrines.  Thus everyone in Laodicea is called to confess and emphatically repent.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Pastor Greg: Maybe the focus in evangelism would shift toward reaching the 130 million unchurched people in this country instead of primarily those already connected to a church family.

Tom Norris:  The focus would be on warning the entire church of the coming Tribulation and Judgment.  Gospel eschatology will stir the world, and a great division will be created in the church over the fate of mankind.

Pastor Greg:  Perhaps the Adventists around the globe would become known as a people passionate about reaching people for Jesus, cooperative in connecting with other Christian groups, and totally unselfish in using the church’s massive resources for the cause of Christ.

Tom Norris:  The power of the Gospel will energize the church, even as the local church will become the driving force for truth, love, and good works.

Pastor Greg:  Maybe all of this sounds like a dream, but can you imagine how God could bless an organization with that kind of courage and authenticity? Imagine how spiritual seekers and believers alike would respect such authentic spirituality.

Tom Norris:  The development of the 4th Angels Message, which includes the correct version of the NC Sabbath, will create another Protestant Reformation in the church.  It will invigorate the dying Advent Movement and change everything.

What is the 4th Angel's Message?
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769

Pastor Greg:  But it will not happen if there are not at least a few that are praying for true revival and unity in the body of Christ, the unity that comes when all true Christians take John 17 seriously.

Tom Norris:  Prayer must be joined with action.  Today, there is a clear path for the Advent Movement.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

Pastor Greg:  We happen to know that there are many SDAs among the grass roots, including some pastors, administrators, and teachers, that have this heart.

Tom Norris:  There are far more former SDA’s than those whose names are on the books.  Millions seek for truth and Gospel understanding, and at some point they must be given the truth and educated in the teachings of Jesus.

Luke 10:2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

Pastor Greg:  But nothing will happen as long as it just takes place in little discussions in the back rooms.

Tom Norris:  Agreed.  It is time for those who understand the Gospel, church history and the Protestant Fundamentals to go forward to the next and final level of Adventism.

Pastor Greg:  Someday we believe that God is going to accomplish these things in Adventism. We will be praying daily for just such a revival.

Tom Norris:  It is time for Adventist Reform to be understood, organized, and implemented.  There is no permission required from the SDA’s to follow truth and move forward.  Neither the Tribulation nor the 2nd Coming which follows are going to wait for the SDA’s to get their act together.  The world marches forward to the great time of trouble and the Judgment.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Rev. 18:1  After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:4  I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Rev. 18:5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9  “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and
lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

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Tom Norris

Expertise

I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.

Experience

Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform. http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

Education/Credentials
Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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