Seventh-Day Adventists/Immortal soul/Hell
Jeff wrote at 2012-05-30 21:04:48
I wanted to give you a non-SDA perspective on your questions.
2 Tim 5:8 means what it says, that to be away from this earthly body, means your soul is at home with the LORD. Everyone is born with a soul that lives past the body. Once that soul leaves the body at death, it goes to heaven or hell, depending on faith in Christ. Paul didn't give a confusing answer in any of the verses mentioned by Matt, he means that when a person dies, the body goes into the ground & the soul will be reunited with the NEW body at the second coming.
1 Thess 4:14 “For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep.” Who is God going to bring w/ Jesus? Those who have fallen asleep. “asleep” is a nice metaphor for “dead”.
Rev 20:10 is very simple & again, it means what it says. First off in v10 it says where the beast & the false prophet are. The false prophet is a human. Second, if you continue reading thru v15, you’ll see that “And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Anyone is everyone standing before the Great White Throne. This is what our Lord referred to as the “resurrection to condemnation”. These are all unbelievers. None of their names were found in the Book of Life. And so what happens to them? Where are they cast? Into the lake of fire, v15.
Matt 25:41 don’t overlook the obvious… who is told to depart from Jesus? The cursed people of the earth from all ages. Matt correctly referenced this to Rev 20:10 but he doesn't see the obvious, that while the lake of fire is prepared for the devil & his angels, unbelievers go there as well.
Rev 14:11 note who is tormented day & night & has no rest. How can someone have “no rest” if they’re annihilated? They can’t. The point is that they are NOT annihilated.
Lastly, you mentioned one of their favorite proof texts: Jude 7 “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Again, don’t overlook the obvious. Did the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah OR the PEOPLE indulge in sexual immorality? Obviously the people did. And who is undergoing a punishment of eternal fire? They are undergoing that punishment as I type this.
This is a common error to watch for – proof texting what they want to prove their point instead of letting the scripture speak for itself. When you let the scripture interpret itself, you’ll see that it means what it says.
vegapunk wrote at 2013-01-19 09:27:40
Sorry to say but Matt didn't address the problem that Revelation 20:10 really presents and that is that you can't interpret that verse any other way(from what I can tell) than that it means literally eternal torment. I'm scouring the internet with the same question you had on Revelation 20:10
Jeff too makes and error when he attaches the same punishment of the three to those being cast into the lake of fire afterwards. You can't logically conclude that. The judgement of Revelation 20:10 is explicitly pronounced against the three. The judgment is not given in a general sense.
I'm interested in being right, not winning an argument so I'm going to be honest and say that yeah Revelations 20:10 does present a serious problem for annihilationism. That being said I can't take the alternate route of changing my doctrine to literal conscious eternal torment because that conflicts with so much more of the Bible than annihilationism. Nor do I think I can take the easy way out and say eternal torment is solely for the 3 because that presents the problem of God never being able to extinguish evil nor meet out justice in full.
The annihilationist interpretation is much much stronger than that for eternal torment so I'm sticking with it and hopefully Revelation 20:10 would make sense as I study more
As for your corinthians verse I dont really see the problem. Maybe we just see it differently but the apostle seemingly is just saying that he wants to be with Jesus now!