Seventh-Day Adventists/Stan's $5,000 challenge
In Stan's $5,000 challenge, Patricia issued her own $5,000 challenge to Stan.
******However , if you would like to issue the same $5,000 challenge to me to prove to you from the Bible and the Bible only (meaning nothing that Ellen White has re-interpreted as truth) that:
1. The Sabbath was given to the Israelites and the Israelites only under the Old Covenant.
2. That New Covenant believers are not under the Old Covenant law.
3. That Gentiles were never under the law and when they became believers the law still did not apply to them.
4. That New Covenant believers find their DAILY rest in Jesus (a Person) and not in a specific day.
5. That believers are free to choose or not to choose a specific day to worship in a building.
6. That the 7th day Sabbath was changed to "Today", etc.....
7. That all believers are now under the New Covenant, a new Priest from the tribe of Judah and under a new system or way of doing things. ******
My response to her questions:
***1. The Sabbath was given to the Israelites and the Israelites only under the Old Covenant.***
Really? I thought it was also for the strangers that were within their gates, and also for any stranger/gentile that chose to enter into covenant with the creator God.
Also, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. Was he mistaken? Did he not know it was only for the Israelites?
***2. That New Covenant believers are not under the Old Covenant law.***
Show me in the bible the phrase "old covenant law".
The fact is that those who are in covenant with Jesus are under no law, whether you want to call it Old Covenant Law or New Covenant Law.
To be under the law means that we are under said laws demands.
Sin is the transgression of the law. (doesn't say old law or new law)
The wages of sin is death.
To be under the law means we are guilty of breaking the law and we must pay it's penalty. We must die.
To be dead to the law means that in Christ, we have already paid that penalty. Does that mean we can go again and break the law?
***3. That Gentiles were never under the law and when they became believers the law still did not apply to them.***
Gentiles were never party to the Old Covenant, but they still sinned. How?
Why did Paul tell gentile Romans in chapter 7:4 that they were dead to the law if they were never party to the Old Covenant?
Paul isn't talking about being dead to the Old Covenant.
It doesn't make sense telling gentiles that they are dead to the Old Covenant Law if they were never party to such laws.
So most of christendoms theology on this verse is wrong.
Most of christendoms theology of Col. 2 is wrong also.
If the handwriting of ordinances refers to the Old Covenant Law, then just how does blotting them out save a gentile?
Paul tells the gentile Colossians that they vs. 13, being dead in their sins and the uncircumcision of their flesh were quickened with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
So we have here in verse 13 the fact that although gentiles were never party to the Old Covenant, they were dead in their sins.
But wait, Paul said where there is no law there is no sin. Just how did the gentiles have sin? They were under no law, or were they?
Then Paul tells them just how they were forgiven in verse 14. By the blotting out of the handwriting of requirements that were against them.
This could not be referring to the Old Law as you call it, or the Old Covenant, since the gentiles were never party to the Old Covenant.
This plainly refers to the record of sin that God has for each and every one of us:
Is. 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
The handwriting of requirements does not refer to the Ten Commandments nor the Old Covenant. It is a record of our sins demanding our death.
So, gentiles too were under a law because it took Jesus death to blot out the death penalty for them too.
Which law they were under is for you to consider. Does God really have one law for the Jew and another for the gentile?
***4. That New Covenant believers find their DAILY rest in Jesus (a Person) and not in a specific day.***
True, but how does this negate the day that God made for man? We definately have our rest in Christ. This is exactly what the Sabbath pictured and continues to picture for unbelievers today.
The seventh day pictures the seventh day in God's plan of salvation for all of mankind. This would be the seventh thousand years in God's plan. The day that Jesus will come to earth and all man will live in peace.
I'm not SDA so I know this goes contary to the desolate earth lie.
Just as Paul in Col. 2 said the Sabbath is (present tense) a shadow of things to come (future tense), the Sabbath still points to future event on God's plan. The day when all of mankind will find our final reast in Christ.
I get tired of people claiming that there is no scripture in the N.T. teaching gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Remember one of the commands for the Sabbath was to assemble. What did Paul and the gentiles do in Antioch? They assembled on the next Sabbath.
Why does Paul enforce what most consider a Jewish day some 30 years after the death of Christ if that day puts gentiles into bondage? Why?
He could have easily said for the gentiles to come out tomorrow. He had already spoken to the jews, it was the gentiles that wanted him to speak with them, yet he made them wait a full week, till the next Sabbath.
***5. That believers are free to choose or not to choose a specific day to worship in a building.***
Really? Or are you twisting Rom. 14? No where in Rom. 14 does it mention the Sabbath yet most of christendom uses this verse to try to do away with the Sabbath.
Remember Jesus made everything. John 1 says that all things were made by Jesus. Jesus also said the Sabbath was made for man. Who made the Sabbath? Jesus.
I've been a Sabbath keeper for over 46 years. I have never been a SDA. I have never believed that Sabbath keeping earns me anything. I keep the Sabbath because it was made for me. Jesus made it for me because I am a man. I am not a legalist because I know that my salvation lies in the death and resurection of Jesus and not by anything that I can do.
But I also know that while I am saved by grace, I am made to do good works. Look it up. We are saved by Grace not of works lest anyone should boast, but we are made unto good works.
God expects us to do the very things that don't save us. This scripture makes that plain.
How many times have I been told when I tell someone that I keep the Sabbath: "well, I'm saved by grace not works, I don't have to keep the Sabbath."
This response tells me that they consider Sabbath keeping a work that we are not saved by to which I agree 100%, but if Sabbath keeping is a work that doesn't save us, it too, according to Paul is a work that we were made to do:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How plain can this be. God had forordained that we should walk in good works. We should walk in the very works that don't save us.
It's really too bad most christians don't understand this.
****6. That the 7th day Sabbath was changed to "Today", etc.....****
Wrong. No where does Hebrews say this. Our day of salvation is Today becaue we live Today. We must accept Christ Today while he can still be found.
It's amazing how the entire third and fourth chapters are talking about Israel's rebellion in the wilderness, telling us not to have that attitude of rebelion, yet most Christians don't even know how Israel rebelled.
Maybe you should read Ezekiel 20 and find out for yourself.
Israel refuse to keep God's Sabbaths which were/are a sign that the creator of everything is our God.
Look up the word for unbelief in a Strongs concordance to see what it means. It means disobedience.
Israel had an evil heart of disobedience. They refused to obey God and keep his Sabbaths, read Ezekiel 20.
Hebrews warns us lest we also have an evil heart of disobedience.
Heb. 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
It is plain in verse 11 that we must labour to enter that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief/disobedience.
While we are not saved by our works, don't let anyone lie to you and tell you that works are not required by God.
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
While we are not justified by our obedience to God, only those who are obedient will God justify.
Obeying God's law is not the "other gospel" that Paul warns about. The other gospel is a gospel of licentiousness or a gospel of disobedience to the law.
I've a question for every Christian out there: Do you want Jesus to say of you, "I never knew you"?
Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Look up that word iniquity, in the greek it is anomia which means against law.
Here were people calling themselves Chriatian who prophesied in Jesus name, who cast out demons and did many wonderful works in Jesus name. Jesus says to them, get away from me you workers of iniquity.
You who are against law. The true gospel is more than just saying I believe in Jesus. It is more than just the idea of resting in Jesus. The true gospel is obeying Jesus the best we can then counting on him to forgive our weaknesses.
***7. That all believers are now under the New Covenant, a new Priest from the tribe of Judah and under a new system or way of doing things. ******
Correct, but the laws are the same. The only difference are we no longer offer sacrifices for Jesus is our sacrifice. We no longer need a physical High Priest for Jesus is our High Priest.
What we must strive to obey is the same as what Abraham obeyed in
Gen. 26:5 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Since the vioce of God, nor his charge, his commandments, statutes and laws aren't spelled out here in Gen. 26 it is up to each of us to determine just how and what we need to obey to please God.
For God does require obedience no matter what anyone says.
Only the doers of the law will be justified.
Thank you for your rebuttal to my response to Stan’s challenge. Following is my response to you to some of your remarks:
that the Sabbath was given to the Gentiles and anyone who was willing to be under the covenant.
Even though there were Gentiles or foreigners in the mix that came with them out of Egypt, God spoke specifically to the Israelites when giving His covenant. The foreigners (Gentiles) were not included in this covenant. The Bible says…
Ephesians 2:12 (AMP)
12 [Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise [with no knowledge of or right in God's agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
Even though they lived with the Israelites, they were not included in the promises given to Israel. When the Israelites crossed the Jordan to go into the Promised Land, God told them to go and select twelve stones which were to be symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel. When entering the various conquered Gentile nations, God commanded the Israelites to kill them, no mingle with them and not to worship their Gods. So to say that foreigners who wanted to be under the covenant could be included with the Israelites cannot be supported from the Bible.
Regarding the Sabbath, in Deuteronomy 5:1, 12-16 , God said to Israel
Deuteronomy 5:1 (AMP)
1 AND MOSES called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, that you may learn them and take heed and do them.
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 (AMP)
12 Observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, or your manservant or your maidservant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the stranger or sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you.
15 And [earnestly] remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe and take heed to the Sabbath day.
The Sabbath was for the Israelites but they were commanded to let the strangers and sojourners, slaves and animals rest so that God’s Sabbath would not be desecrated. It’s no different from most people who let’s say worship on Saturday and have strict rules. When a visitor or family member come into their home on the Sabbath, they are not allowed to do certain things in their home such as watch T.V., cook a meal, etc. because they demand that their sacred Sabbath hours be respected.
“Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. Was he mistaken? Did he not know it was only for the Israelites?”
No, Jesus was not mistaken when He said that the Sabbath was made for man but when the text is read in context, you will discover that Jesus was speaking to pompous religious Jewish leaders. The Gentiles had no interest in the Sabbath because they were not under Jewish law and the Sabbath did not even apply to them. The religious leaders were more interested in their Sabbath rules than they were in Sabbath rest because they were upset that Jesus and His disciples were plucking grain on the Sabbath. Inclusive in Jesus’ rebuke to them about the real purpose of the Sabbath, He said that the Sabbath was made for man. The religious leaders are considered “man” wouldn’t you say? And Jesus was not including “all” of mankind because the Sabbath did not apply to all of mankind.
To further illustrate, the Jews hated the Gentiles and considered them no more than dogs. Dog was a term the Jews commonly applied to Gentiles because the Jews considered these pagan people no more likely than dogs to receive God's blessing. The Jewish leaders would have been outraged if ‘dogs’ were included in the Sabbath given to them, God’s chosen and treasured possession.
“Show me in the bible the phrase "old covenant law".
Following is an excerpt taken from http://www.padfield.com/2004/covenants.html
The Mosaic Covenant
"The Israelites moved to Egypt during the time of Joseph. A new Pharaoh came upon the scene and turned the Israelites into common slaves. The people cried out to the God of their forefathers. "So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob" (Exo. 2:24). After a series of ten plagues upon the land of Egypt, God brought the Israelites out "of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand" (Exo. 32:11).
Three months after leaving the land of Egypt, the children of Israel camped at the base of Mount Sinai (Exo. 19:1). God promised to make a covenant with the Israelites (Exo. 19:3-6). Before they even knew the conditions of the contract, the people agreed to abide by whatever God said (Exo. 19:8).
This covenant was between God and the people of Israel -- you and I are not a party in this contract (and never have been).
The Ten Commandments are the foundation of the covenant, but they are not the entirety of it.
After giving the first ten commands, the people asked the Lord to speak no more (Exo. 20:18-20). Moses then drew near to the presence of God to hear the rest of the covenant (Exo. 20:21). After receiving the Law, Moses spoke the words of the covenant to all of the people, and the people agreed to obey (Exo. 24:4).Moses then wrote the conditions of the covenant down, offered sacrifices to God, and then sprinkled both the book and the people with blood to seal the covenant (Exo. 24:8). This covenant between God and the people of Israel was temporary -- God promised a day when He would make a new covenant, not only with Israel but also with all mankind. "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt
, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Jer. 31:31-34).
If God made a New Covenant, there has to be an Old Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was rendered old when a new one replaced it. The New Covenant became effective after the resurrection of Christ.
, “Gentiles were never party to the Old Covenant, but they still sinned. How?
Gentiles were not party to the law given to Israel simply because it was a covenant between God and Israel only. The following text proves this very point:
Ephesians 2:12 (AMP)
12 [Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise
[with no knowledge of or right in God's agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
Please bear in mind that there were other laws beside the law given to Israel. Before there was a Jew all mankind was under conscience law, the laws of Creation that pointed to God, the Seven Noachide Laws given after the flood, etc. The Seven Noachide Laws were also included in the laws given to Israel even though they still remained effective to what had become Gentiles (since God separated the Jews for Himself). When the Gentiles broke any of their laws, they sinned. And yes, the Jews and Gentiles had separate laws. You can do this research on the Internet and from your Bible, etc.
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 14:23 (AMP)
23 But the man who has doubts (misgivings, an uneasy conscience) about eating, and then eats [perhaps because of you], stands condemned [before God], because he is not true to his convictions and he does not act from faith. For whatever does not originate and proceed from faith is sin
[whatever is done without a conviction of its approval by God is sinful].
Whatever we do to sear our conscience
is sin for us because we are following the convictions of our conscience which is the Spirit speaking to us. Romans 9:1 (AMP) reads….
1 I AM speaking the truth in Christ. I am not lying; my conscience
[enlightened and prompted] by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with me.
Romans 2:12-14 (TLB)
12 He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong.
13 God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them.
14 And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws
but don’t obey
Romans 2:17 (TLB)
17 You Jews think all is well between yourselves and God because he gave his laws to you
; you brag that you are his special friends.
ONLY THE JEWS HAD GOD’S WRITTEN LAW!
, “Why did Paul tell gentile Romans in chapter 7:4 that they were dead to the law if they were never party to the Old Covenant?”
: If you read Romans 7:1 carefully, you will discover that Paul is not speaking to Gentiles but to Jewish believers
. The Jews were the ones who knew the law. He was in essence telling them that they were released from the law when they died to it (born again) so that they could serve in the new way of the Spirit.
Romans 7:6 (NIV)
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit
, and not in the old way of the written code.
, “….are you twisting Rom. 14? No where in Rom. 14 does it mention the Sabbath yet most of christendom uses this verse to try to do away with the Sabbath.”
Romans 14:5 (NIV)
5 One man considers one day more sacred
than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
According to the dictionary.com, the word ‘sacred’ means:
1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3. pertaining to or connected with religion ( opposed to secular or profane): sacred music; sacred books.
The various Sabbaths given to the Jews were called holy or sacred. The word ‘holy’ is a synonym of ‘sacred’ so what would you suggest “one day more sacred’ is referring to?
“While we are not justified by our obedience to God, only those who are obedient will God justify.”
So are you saying that we have to be obedient in order for God to justify us? I think not!
Christ came to die for the disobedient and to declare that we are the righteousness of God.
Titus 3:3-7 (NIV)
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient
, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Verse 5 says that God saved us but not because of the righteous things we have done (obedience, etc.)
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us
, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
, “Obeying God's law is not the "other gospel" that Paul warns about. The other gospel is a gospel of licentiousness or a gospel of disobedience to the law.”
Following is the Gospel in brevity:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (NIV)
1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
The Good News of the Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. The Good News or the gospel has nothing to do with keeping the Mosaic Law. As mentioned earlier, the Jewish believers died to the law so that they might be led by the Spirit.
When I spoke of a new Priest and a new system or way of doing things, you said
, “Correct, but the laws are the same. The only difference are we no longer offer sacrifices for Jesus is our sacrifice. We no longer need a physical High Priest for Jesus is our High Priest.”
The law is not divided into categories. All 613 laws are referred to as the law. When Christ nailed the law to the Cross, it was the law in its entirety. You will find the law categorized in the Bible into moral, ceremonial, civil, health, etc.. This was done by man for his convenience.
Also, the laws under the New Covenant are not the same as the Old Covenant as you indicated.
Hebrews 8:13 (NIV)
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete
; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Hebrews 7:12 (NIV)
12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God
, they are the sons of God.
How can the laws be the same if they MUST BE CHANGED? Change means not the same. The Levitical priests operated under the Mosaic Law and the Priest from the Tribe of Judah (Jesus) operates under Christ’s Law, the Royal Law or the Law of Love.
I referenced some of your points but not all. As you can see, my response has been quite lengthy and I tried to be brief. You probably won’t agree with what I have shared but nonetheless, they are my beliefs and what I believe the Bible says. I just wanted to respond to you. It has taken me longer to reply than usual but I had other questions and your rebuttal was quite long. Blessings!