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Seventh-Day Adventists/Tom Norris, Ellen White, & the IJ Ė Patricia Allen

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Question
Tom,

Iíve been reading your answers for several years now and although I donít always agree with you, I fully respect your right to voice your beliefs and opinions in the spirit of free expression and the constant search for truth.  Unfortunately Patricia Allen doesnít seem to agree with those rights, instead threatening to report you for harassment if you continue to pursue further dialogue with her.   This is indeed unfortunate.  

But I canít say Iím at all surprised by her response.  In the short time she has been an Ďexpertí on this site Iíve had a only a couple of discussions with her.  Each time I came away with the feeling that regardless of how I shared my disagreement with her views, she regarded herself as being totally faultless in her position and cut off any further dialogue...  

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2012/3/add-
answer-link-follow-1.htm

Others have also experienced similar issues with herÖ

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2012/3/add-answer-1.htm

With this attitude she comes across as being simply a disgruntled former SDA with a Ďbone to pickíÖ completely uninterested in carrying on any equitable discussionÖ   An ďangry criticĒ as you pointed out.  She seems to be using this site as a vehicle to voice her opinions, dismiss any opposing views, and eagerly silence anyone who disagrees with her.  

Thank you for challenging Ms. Allen and helping to expose her partiality.  Individuals who have chips on their shoulders and are here only to convince themselves that they are impeccable and beyond reproach should not be volunteering as unbiased experts.

Maranatha!!

John

Answer
John,

Here is my reply to Patricia, which helps explain her background and perhaps her anger and bias.  Many former SDA workers become critics when they retire, and this is what is going on with Patricia.  I have seen it many times with Pastors and Professors, etc.  But she is neither, so she is really not qualified to be a serious critic or to even disucss theology as if she knows what she is talking about.  She really shouldn't be here on this site for a number of reasons.

Tom
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Tom said:  Patricia, I was afraid this would end badly.  Discussions with former SDAs are often not profitable because they are so badly informed, arrogant, and angry.  Many are forever damaged by their long time association with the SDAís, making it difficult for them to think clearly or understand the Bible.  

To make matters worse; those who try and correct them on any point quickly become their enemy.  Thus they can be very rude and unteachable, and this is the case here.

Some think because they left Adventism they are entitled to be viewed as experts, when what they really seek is revenge for how they were raised.  Thus the Internet is full of former SDAís bashing what they once supported and failed to understand properly.  It has become a cottage industry, one that the dishonest SDAís are trying to counter with their own online public relations campaign.  

So there is an online battle taking place about the fate of Adventism.

Patricia, you were an SDA for 50 years, but you only recently discovered they had error in 2005.   Where have you been all these years? Then you retired in 2008 after almost 4 decades of church service, and then in 2010 you became a great SDA critic.  Why did it take you so long to figure out there was error in SDA theology?  What were you doing all during that time?  Not thinking at all?  Not paying attention to the debate and reforms all around you?

I find it very hypocritical of you to wait until you retired (2008) before you went public about the many errors of Adventism.  I have met many such dishonest SDAís that also happily embrace error for the sake of their careers. But when the money stops, they see great error, many becoming critics and disciples of D. M. Canrigth, the greatest of all SDA critics.  

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-123031/Seventh-Day-Adventists/Patricia-Allen.h

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53883103/Out-of-the-House-of-Bondage

Did you even know there was a Gospel Movement within the Denomination in the late 20th century to correct errors, repudiate the IJ, and tell the truth about Ellen White and church history?  Why did you not stand up with Dr. Ford and support his correct Gospel reforms back in 1980 and since?  Too busy getting paid by the church to support the IJ?  I bet you thought Dr. Ford was a heretic?

So you have a very strange resume for someone pretending to be an expert about SDAís.  One that features the fact you were ďdeluded and deliberately deceived by the church I lovedĒ  for most of your life.  

But you took their money didnít you?  Now that the money train is over, you have come out against the SDAís that supported you all these years.  Such a coincidence happens all the time in Adventism.  After Retirement, many church workers become very critical of what they supported so publicly.  Why is that?

Since when does embracing error for money and being lost in a cultic sea of confusion make anyone an expert about Gospel truth?  You were clueless and wrong when you were an SDA for 50 years, and now that you are not, nothing seems changed, except you are less legalistic perhaps.  You are still full of false doctrine and theological incompetence, and you seem fine with that.

Were you this stubborn, unteachable, and mean as an SDA?

Just as the SDAís refuse correction, so too many former SDAís, even as they think it their new mission to warn people away from their former errors.  But yet, they have few credible doctrines to call truth, embracing more error as a result.   The state of this crowd is hardly improved, if at all.  They are still full of error, anger, and much double-talk.  Just like you, and the Sabbath is a great example of their lack of doctrinal progress and Gospel maturity.  

While I agree that this discussion has been a ďwaste of timeĒ for Patricia, not so for those who can learn by her mistakes.   Perhaps one day she will repent and become humble and teachable, able to understand church history and the Gospel Story correctly.  But until then, she can be an example of how not to think and act.

Rom. 12:3  For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Patricia said: It is obvious to me that you are a very angry man and if you need me to be your scapegoat to vent, I can handle it. Just because you say something about me doesn't make it a fact. Just because you believe something about me, doesn't make it true. In my opinion, you come across as a self-righteous, know-it-all, arrogant bully and I refuse to stoop to your level.

Tom said:  I am not upset in the least, nor am I looking for a ďscapegoat.Ē  For what?  Do not confuse blunt talk with anger or even frustration.  Your confused views are easily refuted, even as you struggle to answer the most simple of questions.  I feel sorry for you, not angry.  The Gospel has eluded you all your life, and unless you can repent and become teachable, you will never understand or be saved.

Moreover, this is not about anyoneís opinion.  I know how to answer the question put to you (twice) and you donít.  In fact, you were giving out wrong answers.  This is why I stepped forward to correct the record.  You should have been grateful, not hostile and defensive.  Your welcome.

The record has been corrected, and then some.  Mission accomplished for Adventist Reform.  The fact you refuse to apologize or admit your errors is something you will have to deal with, and so too the fact you also refuse to learn.  But the details about the PAJ has been preserved, even as these tired old myths about the IJ are being exposed as nonsense.  So your errors have brought attention to this important point.

You need to take a deep breath and perhaps get some medication.  Not only were you admittedly wrong most of your life about Gospel doctrine, you are even more so now.  All you have done is exchange one set of false, SDA doctrines, which you never understood correctly, for another confused set of teachings, which makes you feel better about yourself.  But you have not found the Gospel as yet, only a good target for shooting practice, the SDAís.

Then, when confronted with your former and present errors, you throw a temper tantrum.  Were you an only child?  Or do you always lash out at those trying to help you?

Those who stand in public to teach, have taken on a serious responsibility.  They donít get to say whatever they want or pretend they know what they are talking about when they donít.  Do you understand this?  Those who claim to be experts are held to a higher standard and thus they ďincur stricter judgment.Ē

James 3:1  Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Moreover, Jesus teaches that unless one understands true doctrine, one had better not try to correct others.  Do you understand this?  Do you understand that you are not qualified to teach what you donít know, much less to instruct anyone about the Gospel or church history.  You are not qualified, nor has God given you any such mission to promote error and confusion.  Sorry.

Luke 6:41 ďWhy do you look at the speck that is in your brotherís eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Luke 6:42 ďOr how can you say to your brother, ĎBrother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,í when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brotherís eye.
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At this point, you have no business pretending that you can teach the Gospel or explain Adventist theology or history to anyone.  I donít know why you think being deluded (your words) most of your life about religion qualifies anyone as an expert on truth.  Error maybe, but not truth.  Your resume does not fit your ambitions.

Those who follow the genuine Christ, must point to truth, not to error.  Error is everywhere, but not so truth, which is hard to find.  You should not presume to think you have found it as yet.  Nor should you think you understand the errors of Ellen White and the SDAís.  You do not.  So you are wrong about most everything, just like most all SDAís and former SDAís.

Patricia said:  I do understand what you are saying. It is quite possible that she was asking the question because of what she said you said, but the fact remains that she did not ask me about your views. While it cannot be denied that she mentioned you by name, it can be denied that Tom Norris is the subject.

Tom said:  You understand little.  If you are having this much trouble understanding questions, you need to find another hobby.  

I have never seen such a childish discussion in all my life.  Not only are you unable to answer questions correctly, you canít even understand the questions when they are explained to you.  At this point, I donít think I can help you.  You are determined to be wrong, no matter what, and that is your right.  But such typical SDA arrogance and hubris is worthless, and so too your temper tantrum and threats.

Patricia said:  Take note that she stated that she heard you state that EGW did not support the IJ. If she "heard" you state it, why would she need me to tell her your position? Illogical don't you think? Seems to me, your argument is with her, not me. Her conclusion about your position was made before she asked for my thoughts. In other words, she felt she already knew what you believed and wanted to know what I believed -- plain and simple. To read anything else into it is reaching!

Tom said:  The question was very logical;  it was asked BECAUSE of what Tom Norris (and others) had supposedly said about Ellen White and the IJ.  She wanted your view about what she heard.  I donít know why this is so confusing for you.  Especially because you had been asked this same question before by others.  Why are you pretending?  This is not the first time you have incorrectly answered this question.

She wanted your opinion because she thought you were an expert about SDA history and theology.  But you canít even understand a simple question about the IJ and Ellen White, much less get it correct.  Now everyone knows that you donít know what you are talking about and you have a bad attitude as well.  Not good.

Patricia said:  Kindly redirect your need to be right and your anger to the responsible source -- Tom Norris, aka YOU! You will not be receiving an apology from me. And, yes, I am keenly aware that my refusal to do so is for the public to see, which is the platform of your choice. You had the option of sending me a private email and we could have taken it from there but you chose this platform.

Tom said:  Your bad attitude will not change the fact that you are no expert, nor is it evidence that you have any mission from God to correct others about things you donít know.

Why not start a blog or form a study group, but donít pretend you are an expert about anything Adventist.  You have much to unlearn and relearn before you are ready to teach others anything about the Gospel or church history.  Complaining about error does not make anyone an expert about truth, especially those who supported those errors for most of their lives and were paid to do so.  It just makes them hypocrites and complainers, having the wrong Spirit and Gospel.  You need to find truth, not focus on error, which has engulfed you your entire life.

It is clear that we have very different views about church history and theology.  It is also clear that you donít have enough knowledge to have a profitable discussion.  But regardless, others may learn from your errors, even as some may catch on to understand this critical issue about the PAJ not being in Daniel.

Patricia said:  Tom, I am not you. I don't think like you. I don't act like you. I don't believe like you and the way you treat people, I would never want to be you. Even though we are different on many levels, it is no excuse to be unkind, at least not for me. Stop trying to brow beat me into submission to your way of thinking and doing by trying to discredit me and my experiences. It ain't gonna happen Mr.(supposedly) 19th Century SDA doctrine expert!

Tom said:  Your temper tantrums notwithstanding, you still do not know how to understand, much less answer, the most simple questions about Ellen White and the IJ.  This is the problem.

So you can pretend you have been treated badly if you want, but the real problem is that you are wrong, and you donít like to be corrected.  I get that.  No one likes to be wrong or lose, etc.  But this is not about winning or losing; it is about the search for Gospel truth.  One day you might understand this point.

It would have been better for you to admit that you are not trained to answer such serious questions about doctrine or church history.  And to apologize for not taking the time to research the answer.  That would have been the honest thing to do.

You should have just admitted you did know much of anything about this topic, except what you were brainwashed to believe.  That would have been better instead of taking offense and refusing to be educated on the facts.  

Are you sure you want to dig in your heels and fight the facts?  Do you really think making threats and acting like a child will help your credibility?   

Furthermore, since when is it unkind to tell the truth?  The fact that it upsets you is beside the point.  Neither doctrine nor history is subject to our feelings or opinions.  So facts can be painful, I agree, but they are still facts, even as myths must always be opposed.  You being an expert is a great myth.  Donít believe it.

As for me discrediting you, why would I need to do that?  You have already admitted to being lost in a cultic fog of Adventism for most of your life.  You worked for the SDAís for most of your life.  That speaks volumes as to your lack of religious perception.  Your whole life has been wrong by your own admission.  So you have discredited yourself.

You said that in 2005:  ďI discovered that I was deluded and deliberately deceived by the church I loved and served. In 2010, I requested that my name be withdrawn from the membership roster of the church. Since then, it has been my passion to tell those in the SDA church and those considering joining Adventism, the truth and freedom that I have discovered and enjoy daily.

How did you go from a lifetime of error and delusion to instructing people about the Gospel and the dangers of Adventism?  How did you make such a remarkable transition in such a short time from Deluded to Expert?

Answer:  You have made no such transition.  Nor do you understand the Gospel or church history clearly or correctly.  You canít even explain how Ellen White views the IJ, and you were an SDA for 50 years!

Patricia said:  If the truth were to be known, You owe me an apology.

Tom said:  The truth of this matter is known.  You were wrong and you should apologize to everyone.  You have made no case that I owe you an apology.

However, I am sorry you have taken this correction so badly.  But it proves you have the same deluded spirit as you have had all your life.  You are the stubborn one here, even as you are the bully, going so far as making threats and giving rude notices and ultimatums.  Sad.

Patricia said:  You have been quite loose with your remarks and accusations but I am a big girl and I can handle it.

Tom said:  Wrong.  You have failed to address numerous points, like the fact you have been asked this same question before.  And you got it wrong then as well.  Why have you never addressed this point, which proves you did understand the question all along?

Moreover, quoting Froom, and then trying to say that this is what Ellen White believed about the IJ is so reckless and dishonest that is proves you are not to be trusted.  Experts canít act like this.

Furthermore, it is obvious that you ďcannot handle it.Ē  You are not a mature, experienced Christian, but one who has admittedly lived most of her life in a deluded, cultic, state of mind, which no doubt explains your bad, arrogant attitude.  

Your life is what you have made it so far, and I see nothing that would make anyone think you are now being called to lead or instruct anyone as you think.  Maybe you are?  But if so, you must first repent and become educated on the Gospel issues.  This you have not done, nor does it seem to be in your future plans.

Patricia said:  I suppose it comes with the territory although I am a tad bit surprised it comes from a fellow expert wanting to thrash it out in public. It's not my fault that you don't know the difference between a statement and a question.

Tom said:  Those who go public as experts and religious guides have nowhere to hide when they get the answers wrong and look foolish.  There is a long running public discussion about Adventism taking place, and you made the mistake of pretending that you are an expert about such matters.   This is not true.  You are clueless to the issues, as well as arrogant.  And now your bad attitude is only making things worse for you.

Patricia scolded:  You've taken up enough of my precious time by trying to "set the record straight", by trying to publicly put me in my place, and by trying to berate me for the world to see. In my eyes, your mission was unsuccessful. I am still standing! Your accusations are completely unwarranted and the manner you chose to handle them is questionable, even disappointing. I am not embarrassed but you should be. Your behavior makes you look very very small.

Tom said:  First, if you want to be an expert, you have to invest more time with the material.  This is what makes an expert; being familiar with the history, sources, and issues.  Being clueless is a big problem.

Second, you are taking this too personally.  I was trying to correct your wrong answer and draw attention to the stubborn myth whereby many people think Ellen White supported the IJ as a pillar from Historic Adventism, when that was never true.  

This really has very little to do with you.  As it stands, you have no place in this discussion because you donít know what you are talking about.  You are part of the problem, when you should be part of the solution.  Sad.

While you may think you are scoring points, you have only made yourself look foolish, which is your right.  As for me, mission accomplished.  The record has been corrected for all to see.  

However, please stop misrepresenting my views, as well as that of Ellen White.  It will only call for further correction and further embarrassment for you.

Patricia said:  For the record, whether you approve of me or like my contribution or not, my calling and ministry on this site are just as important as yours and you will never have the power to make me feel belittled or discouraged. Who are you to question why I am here?

Tom said:  I think you are here under false pretenses.  You are only an expert in error and myth.  In fact, you have admitted to being deluded about religion for most of your life, so how does that qualify you for some great ministry?  It doesnít.  It might help you with your guilt for having an empty religion for most of your life, but it doesnít give you the education you need to understand Gospel topics and lead people to truth.

You need to learn the Gospel, not try and teach others what you donít know.

You are nowhere close to being an ďexpertĒ about the Christian Faith or Adventism.  You donít know Adventist history or their doctrinal development, and you seem to have no knowledge of Dr. Fordís Gospel ministry and reforms.  You are just here to complain about things you donít understand.  This is not the place for such people.  Adventism deserves better, and so too those who seek truth.  Adventism is still important, regardless of its many errors.  It needs to be better understood and reformed, and you are not helping in either area.

Patricia said:  Everything I mentioned in my answer regarding the IJ was quoted by the source, EGW. Yet, for some unknown and quizzical reason you accuse me of misquoting their history and that I don't know what I am talking about.

Tom said:  Wrong.  First off, you also quoted Froom, thinking that Ellen White agrees with his view of the IJ.  But this is wrong.  She does not.  And you were very wrong to pretend you only quoted Ellen White, you didnít.  So stop being so dishonest.

Second, your quotes about Ellen White make no sense, nor do they come close to dealing with the issues.  Why are you wasting your time trying to defend what you donít understand?  You donít know the historical development of the IJ so what is the point of even having a discussion with you?  You are a clueless expert, which is no expert at all.  Which is why you are giving out wrong answers to simple questions.

Patricia said:  I have never claimed to be a 19th century SDA doctrine expert (you gave me that distinction) but since I quoted Ellen White, does that mean that she doesn't know what she is talking about Mr.(supposedly) 19th Century SDA Doctrine Expert? It seems that you think you are the only one with "right" answers.

Tom said:  Ellen White knows what she is talking about, but you donít! Nor do you know what Dr. Ford, or Tom Norris is talking about.  This is the problem.  You donít know what you donít know.  Itís a lot.

While I have spent decades trying to find the answers and resolve the issues, you allowed yourself to be deluded and deceived for most of your life.  This is what you have admitted.  Those who live such a life of delusion and myth are hardly fit to lead others into truth.  But yet, here you are.  The blind trying to lead the blind.

Patricia said:  I could flip the question and ask you why are you on this site. Why are you here misrepresenting the Bible (aforementioned Sabbath example)?

Tom replied:  I am here to clear up the legions of myths and half-truths that have overtaken the Adventist Community, correcting the PAJ as well as the Sabbath doctrine.  I am here to help transition Old Covenant Adventism into a New Covenant paradigm that features correct Gospel Eschatology and the completion of Sabbath Reform.  

You should want to join that Gospel endeavor.  Then you could make sense of your life and actually help those stuck in OC Adventism.

Patricia said:  Tom, I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to put you on notice: I do not care to, I do not want to, nor will I tolerate hearing from you in any capacity about anything.

Tom said:  This is funny.  Who are you to put anyone on any notice?  Do you think you are the Post Office?  You have signed up to discuss Adventism in the public domain under false pretenses.  You are not an expert at anything but having a bad attitude.  If you donít like the discussion, feel free to leave.  Notice rejected.  

Patricia screamed:  If I hear from you in any manner, I will report you to the site administrators because I will consider it as harassment.

Tom said:  Wow!  I see you have lost all control.  Do you really think that making threats will change the fact that you need to apologize and correct your answers?  Scream all you want, it changes nothing.  You are no expert.  Most people will easily understand this fact by now.

Patricia threatened:  I will also request them to view the published correspondence between us and let the chips fall where they may.

Tom replied:  So you think I am on trial?  For what?  Daring to point out your errors?  This is sad, --and comical.  

Patricia said:  As far as I am concerned, the subject is exhausted, closed and buried! I thank you in advance for honoring my simple request.

Tom said:  The subject of Ellen White and the IJ is hardly closed or concluded.  While the White Estate has tried to bury it, and pretend there is no such anomaly, this is not going to happen.  It is a critical point to understand.  So your request is denied.  

This topic is wide open; alive and well as a fundamental part of Adventist Reform.  You, on the other hand, are free to look away and deny what you donít understand, just like you have doing for most of your life.  But for those searching for truth, this point  about the IJ, as well as itís repudiation, will lead to the correct version of the fundamentals for the modern Adventist Community.  

Patricia said:  BTW, I have no disdain for SDAs. Some of my closest friends are SDAs. No need to try to make it personal. ;-( Again, shame on you!

Tom said:  Your whole life was SDA.  I would hope you still have some friends left.  Too bad you donít know enough to help your former SDA friends.  Too bad you donít want to learn the Gospel and church history correctly so you can help others.

Patricia said:  Now breathe  s l o w l y  and try really hard not to contact me again because there will be consequences.

Tom said:  Stop making threats.  I am sure that is not allowed by the administrators, even as it may be a crime.  When you speak this way I donít know if should call a doctor or report you to the police.  Such absurd talk underscores your rude and arrogant behavior, further proving that you are not an expert about Adventism, but only a confused troublemaker.

Rom. 16:17  Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching, which you learned, and turn away from them.

Patricia, you have much to learn before you can teach others.  I suggest you post less and study more.

2Tim. 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

2Tim. 2:24 The Lordís bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

2Tim. 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

2Tim. 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=11601#p11601

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Tom Norris

Expertise

I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.

Experience

Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform. http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

Education/Credentials
Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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