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Seventh-Day Adventists/The Ten Commandments and Creation - pt. 2

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Question
QUESTION: Hi Patricia,
Thank you for your reply as I love discussing doctrine with fellow believers. My response here is rather long but I hope you will take the time to carefully consider everything. However your answers to Exodus 16 (the Sabbath test) and Exodus 20 (the giving of the law) are not satisfying.

I quote from the KJV:
Exodus 16:28 "And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws ?

If God introduced only the Sabbath to them and then gave the rest of the law at Sinai - why would God accuse them of refusing to keep his commandments (plural) and his laws (also plural)???

And I had mentioned this in the last post - Israel had just come out of bondage and if God is just introducing the Sabbath to them for the first time - why is God SO harsh as wanting to strike them down dead? This doesn't even sound reasonable on a human level, let alone from a loving God.

You quoted Romans 5:13 as a fact there was no law until after sin entered the world. But this very text proves that the law was in existence before the giving of it at Sinai.

Notice again Romans 5:13 (KJV)
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law .

In other words a wrong action (sin) cannot be credited to you UNLESS there is a law somewhere that says it's wrong.

No law - no sin
If you sin - there is a law.

The last part of this verse is in line with what Paul says in Romans 4:15 "for where no law is, there is no transgression. (or sin)

And 1 John 3:4 says "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law .

Let's establish 2 things we've just read from the Bible:
1. Where there is no law - there is no transgression.
2. Sin is transgressing (or a violating) of the law.


How did Joseph know it was a sin to commit adultery with his masters wife?
Gen. 39:9 "There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God ?

We've just learned that if there is no law - and this is what you are claiming because you say the law wasn't given until Sinai - if there is no law than Joseph could not be committing a sin if he was to sleep with his master's wife. But yet Joseph knew it would have been a sin.

SIN is the transgression of the law. Joseph's sin would have been a transgression of a law. Obviously this must be one of the Ten Commandments that says "Thou shalt not commit adultery".

The law clearly and must have existed before Sinai. And as we've seen the wording in Exodus 16:28 says so too.


Abraham kept God law
Genesis 26:5 (KJV)
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How can this text prove any plainer that ALL of God's laws were existing at the time of Abraham - long before Exodus.


Cain and Abel
Genesis 4:6, 7
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door . And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

If there wasn't a commandment that said "Thou shalt not kill" how could it have been "sin" for Cain to kill his brother?


The Ten Commandments existed in heaven before this earth was created
Ezekiel 28 speaks of Lucifer while he was still in heaven and what happened at his fall.

(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

Lucifer was a covering cherub. What was he covering? The mercy seat - which is the throne of God. And what was under the mercy seat? The ark containing the Ten Commandments.

The Bible tells us that the Sanctuary on earth (which had the Ten Commandments in it) was a pattern (a copy) of the heavenly. Read Exodus 25 for more detailed information.

But here in Ezekiel - before the creation of this world - Lucifer is a covering cherub - covering the mercy seat which contained the Ten Commandments.


Further proof of the Ten Commandments in heaven before this earth
Ezekiel 28:16 (still speaking of Lucifer)
"By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned :"

How could Lucifer had "sinned" in heaven if there was no law telling him it was wrong? If there was no law telling Lucifer that it is wrong to lie - that it is wrong to kill - how could God throw him out of heaven?

Where there is no law there is no transgression.
Sin is the transgression of the law.


Even more proof the law existed before this earth was created
Here is proof-positive that the Ten Commandments existed in heaven and that Lucifer broke them.

1 John 3 says alot about the Ten Commandments:

(3) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

John establishes that sin is the breaking of God's holy law.

(5) "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

John tells us that Jesus, who did no sin, was manifested to take away our sins (in other words our transgressions of God's holy law). (AMEN!!!)

(6) "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

John tells us that when we accept Christ we won't want to sin - we won't want to break his holy law. And then he says that if we refuse to obey him then we have not even known him.

And now notice this...
(8) "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

In the same chapter and in the same context John, who is talking about the Ten Commandments, says that "the Devil sinned from the beginning". In other words the Devil broke the law of God - he was the first one to do so. We just read in Ezekiel 28:16 that Lucifer had sinned and here John in the same context says the Devil broke the Ten Commandments.


Jesus confirms this
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning , and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him . When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

The devil committed murder from the beginning and and he lied from the begging. He is the father of it - the originator of sin which is the breaking of the law.

The truth is the law
In John 8:44 it says about the Devil "...and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him."

What is this truth that the Devil doesn't have?
Psalm 119:142 "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth .


Isn't the Bible awesome? How everything comes together?

Patricia - The law clearly existed before Sinai - the evidence is pretty staggering. The Sabbath was introduced at Creation week? It's SO clear. Jesus made the 7th day holy. It says he blessed it and  sanctified it.

Some conclusions
Patricia, as a Christian (and I am a Seventh-day Adventist), I love you as a sister in Jesus Christ. Guys like Dale Ratzlaf, Des Ford,, etc... are doing a major disservice to the cause of God. Think about it - Dales's sole mission is to tear down the SDA church and it's teachings and pull as many people out as he can. He has every right to do this but don't you think it's funny that he will not say one thing about the Roman Church? There are far more people trapped in this system that the 15 million that may be in the SDA church that Dale thinks is trapped here.

As a Seventh-day Adventist, I believe wholeheartedly that Ellen White was used by God to give a message for the people living in the last days. Yes I believe she was a prophet. But notice I don't quote Ellen White at all in any of my answers. I can prove EVERY belief (including the Investigative Judgment) using the Bible only.

Patricia - please don't mind me saying this but you have been a victim of the SDA church's Laodicean condition. You probably came into the church via a Revelation seminar (many do). And remember how excited you were to learn these truths that you had never heard before? But here's the problem - once a person comes into the church they hardly ever hear our distinctive message again. So what happens is when guys like Dale Ratlaf and Desmond Ford come along with their eloquent styles many people, because they don't hear our distinctive truths from our pulpits and because we're not studying the prophecies, many are drawn away and leave the church.

The vast majority of the sermons preached from our pulpits could be preached at any Sunday church without complaints. In other words there is no difference in the message. But SDAs are to have a distinctive message.

If the SDA church believes the Pope is the Antichrist - then why don't we warn the world? As a whole the General Conference is not doing it's job. The church is afraid to preach this message. They've become buddies with the Roman Church. We're afraid of offending - and possibly many may not even believe it anymore.

If the SDA church believes Babylon (the 2nd Angel's Message) is the fallen denominational Protestant churches - why don't we warn them? Several reasons: (1) Policy has taken the place of principle. And (2) we are part of the World Council of Churches and have been for m

The church is trying to appease the world instead of God.
Patricia - I can answer all you doctrinal concerns that you have with the SDA church. I don't know what they are - usually they involve the Investigative Judgment and another problem is the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 - there seems to be a discrepancy there. Antiochus Epiphanes is NOT the fulfillment of the Little Horn or even A fulfillment.

I wish there was some way we could converse  - do you know of a way? Would you be interested?

I can answer all you doctrinal concerns that you have with the SDA church. I have visited sites like Spectrum Magazine (which really downs the doctrines of the church). I have repeatedly tried to engage those who deny (and even laugh at those who believe in) the Investigative Judgment. Guess what? Not a single one of them will discuss. They refuse and then just call me silly.

Even Tom Norris (on this site) will not discuss it either. He'll spew his venom against the church (but yet claiming to be a SDA) but he will not get into the heart of the issues.

Patricia - I would love to hear what you have to say about things. I hope to hear from you and I wish you all the best in your journey.

God Bless, David

ANSWER: Dear David,

The whole point of your last post was attempting to prove that the Ten Commandments were effective in the Garden of Eden in heaven. Of course, I disagree.

Since God is a God of order, I cannot imagine Him creating a world without some guidelines for it and its inhabitants. However, are you aware that there are other laws in addition to the Torah?

For instance, when I was doing my research, I discovered that there were laws in the beginning but they were not the Ten Commandments. They were what are better known as the Noachide Laws or universal laws for all mankind. Following is an excerpt from Wikipedia to explain. Also a very informative link is: http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id105.html .  Hopefully you will research this further.

“In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humankind.[2][3]
According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the World to Come (Hebrew: עולם הבא‎ Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[4][5] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides," and may sometimes network in Jewish synagogues.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:[6]
1.   The prohibition of Idolatry.
2.   The prohibition of Murder.
3.   The prohibition of Theft.
4.   The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
5.   The prohibition of Blasphemy.
6.   The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7.   The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

The Noahide laws comprise the six commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[7] and a seventh precept, which was added after the Flood of Noah. According to Judaism, the 613 commandments given in the written Torah, as well as their explanations and applications discussed in the oral Torah, are applicable to the Jews only, and non-Jews are bound only to observe the seven Noahide laws .” (End of quote)

These laws were universal laws for all of mankind. When God set Israel aside as His special people in accordance with His promise to Abraham, these seven laws were incorporated into the Torah given to Israel. Israel ended up with 613 written laws (Torah) and the Gentile nations were still under the Seven Noachide or universal laws. Gentiles were not required to take on the additional laws given to Israel.

This explains why Cain knew that it was wrong to kill (the prohibition of murder) and why Joseph said that to sleep with Potiphar’s wife would be a sin against God (the prohibition of sexual immorality).  

You wrote:
Abraham kept God law
Genesis 26:5 (KJV)
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How can this text prove any plainer that ALL of God's laws were existing at the time of Abraham - long before Exodus.

My response:

Just because Abraham obeyed God’s commandments, statutes and laws does not prove that the Ten Commandments existed. It proves that he kept the seven universal laws, commandments and statutes in addition to what God commanded of him audibly and through visions, dreams and his conscience.

You wrote:

“Patricia - The law clearly existed before Sinai - the evidence is pretty staggering. The Sabbath was introduced at Creation week? It's SO clear. Jesus made the 7th day holy. It says he blessed it and  sanctified it.”

My response:

It is not SO clear to me. I have already stated that I disagree with your conclusion that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance. Do you believe this because God blessed and sanctified the 7th day? God blessed and sanctified (these words can be used interchangeably) many things that have ceased to have meaning. For instance:

Numbers 7:1 (KJV)
And it came to pass on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it , and all the instruments thereof, both the altar and all the vessels thereof, and had anointed them, and sanctified them ;

God sanctified and anointed the tabernacle and all the instruments, the altar and all the vessels. What significance does this sanctification have for Israel today since there is no temple?  Just because God sanctifies something (days, buildings, things) doesn't  necessarily mean it is sanctified forever.

You wrote:

The Ten Commandments existed in heaven before this earth was created
Ezekiel 28 speaks of Lucifer while he was still in heaven and what happened at his fall.
“But here in Ezekiel - before the creation of this world - Lucifer is a covering cherub - covering the mercy seat which contained the Ten Commandments.”

My response:

Where does the Bible tell us that Lucifer covered the mercy seat? If Lucifer were assigned the position of the covering cherub for the Mercy Seat as you indicated, are you saying he left his post of duty in order to incite rebellion against God? Since he was the leader of the rebellion are you further saying that his post of duty was part-time and the rest of the time he used to cause a rebellion? Was he a covering cherub and a hellion at the same time? Using your example of the earthly sanctuary, the covering cherubs were a PERMANENT position so Lucifer would not be free to start a rebellion. Furthermore, a covering is protection, so is it possible that the covering cherub in Eden was the angel that protected the entrance to the garden? Just something to ponder. A lot of interpretations can be made regarding the symbolism in Ezekiel.

You said:

Further proof of the Ten Commandments in heaven before this earth
Ezekiel 28:16 (still speaking of Lucifer)
"By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned :"

My response:

Are you certain that this is referring to Lucifer? What is the merchandise being spoken of that Lucifer has in heaven? Who are the “they” that filled Lucifer with violence? I thought Lucifer was the instigator and caused his own fall due to pride. Didn’t Adam and Eve also aspire to be like God when they disobeyed God and ate from the tree? Weren’t they kicked out of Eden? Lucifer wasn’t the only one in the garden that had pride problems. Also Ezekiel 28 mentions a being covered with all sorts of jewels:

Ezekiel 28:13-15 (AMP)

You were in Eden , the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the carnelian, topaz, jasper, chrysolite, beryl, onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and your settings and your sockets and engravings were wrought in gold. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
14  You were the anointed cherub that covers with overshadowing [wings], and I set you so. You were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire [like the paved work of gleaming sapphire stone upon which the God of Israel walked on Mount Sinai].
15  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you.

Why would God cover the fallen Lucifer with every precious stone? Also, verse 15 could refer to Adam and Eve because they too were blameless until they disobeyed God’s command not to eat from the tree.

At this point, I would like to share Ezekiel 28:16 in its completeness since you shared only the first part:

Ezekiel 28:16 (KJV)

16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

You emphasized the words “thou hast sinned” to prove that the Ten Commandments were in heaven but were there stones of fire in heaven also? Was this the first, second or third heaven?

Ezekiel 28 has to be read carefully (as does the whole Bible) because for the most part the wicked King of Tyre is being addressed even though some of his characteristics are being compared to someone and/or something else.

Chapter 28 is full of metaphors that could be compared to Lucifer, but remember Adam was also in the Garden of Eden and there was also a Cherubim covering or guarding the garden. Can you really take this one text and say that Lucifer was the covering cherub over the Mercy Seat , which overlooked the Ten Commandments as described in the earthly sanctuary? Was Pharoah a sea monster or dragon as described in Ezekiel 29:3? Proper interpretation demands consistency. You can't be literal in one verse and metaphoric in the next.

Ezekiel 29:3 (KJV)
3  Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee,Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers , which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

To close, I would like to share the various laws that are expounded upon in the Bible. I am sharing this to show you that there are other laws in addition to the Ten Commandments and one has to look at the context in order to know which law/s is/are being spoken of.

Various Laws:
•   The Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2)
•   The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)
•   The Law of my mind (Romans 7:23)
•   The Law of sin (Romans 7:23)
•   The Law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)
•   The Law of Liberty (James 1:25; 2:12)
•   The Royal Law (James 2:8)
•   The Law of Love (Matt. 22:34-40; Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14)
•   The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2)
•   A Law of righteousness (Romans 9:31)
•   The Law of Moses (Joshua 8:32)
•   The Law of a carnal commandment (Hebrews 7:16)
•   God’s Law (Nehemiah 10:29 aka Moses Law)

It’s impossible to say that every time the word law and commandment is mentioned in the Bible that it is referring to the Ten. Furthermore, the law (Torah given to Israel which included the Ten Commandments) was given until the Seed (Christ) came to fulfill it. Born again believers are led by the Spirit and saved by grace through faith.

May God continue to bless you!

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Patricia,
Thanks for your response. First I would like to apologize for my "coding" as for some reason it didn't work.

About your response:
I am amazed at your "exegesis" of Biblical passages.

Your stance on the "Seven Laws of Noah" are the pot calling the kettle black. You accuse Adventists of getting their theology from Ellen White and not the Bible but yet you are going outside of the Bible to try and uphold and release yourself from the obligation of the Ten Commandments. AMAZING!!! Wikipedia??? You're going to prove a Biblical point using Wikipedia???? We have to get better than this.

YOU STATED:
When God set Israel aside as His special people in accordance with His promise to Abraham, these seven laws were incorporated into the Torah given to Israel. Israel ended up with 613 written laws (Torah) and the Gentile nations were still under the Seven Noachide or universal laws. Gentiles were not required to take on the additional laws given to Israel.

My comments:
This is purely fabricated falsehood. God doesn't have one set of rules for one people and another set of rules for another. The Eunuchs were not Israelites but notice what the Bible says:

Isaiah 56:4 "For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant"

Verse 5 says "Even unto them (the Enuchs) will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."

Now that is not matching with what you are trying to saying. God's covenant is for the human race - not just Israel exclusively. God chose Israel as a nation for a special purpose - to spread the news of the coming Messiah - to anyone who would listen - not just other Jews.


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS BEFORE SINAI
As for Gen. 26:5 - it is so plain on what Abraham kept that there is not much more I can comment on with this verse.... except this:

The Ten Commandments were absolutely known before Sinai and kept by Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Here's why:
In chapter 11, Jeremiah is reminding the leaders of Israel about the law covenant at Sinai.

Jer. 11:4, 5 "Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, ... saying, Obey my voice, ... That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers , to give them a land flowing with milk and honey."

Very plainly the same covenant that was made with Israel when they came out of Egypt was also made with the fathers before them. The covenant existed before Sinai and the Ten Commandments existed before Sinai.

NEED MORE PROOF?
1 Chronicles 16:15-17: "Be ye mindful always of his covenant ... Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Patricia - it doesn't get any plainer then this text. The SAME covenant that had been made with Israel had been made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - it says "FOR A LAW" - long before it was written on stone at Sinai. How awesome is the Bible?

EVEN MORE PROOF
In Deuteronomy 29 the covenant is repeated again with the reminder that it had been sworn to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then follow these words: "Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath; But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day." Verses 14, 15.


About Lucifer in heaven
Your comments on Ezekiel 28 and whether it is speaking of Lucifer is surprising and much of it is pure rationalizing. Every denomination and scholar (that I know of) realizes this is speaking of Lucifer. It says "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (vs. 14)

For you to say this could be Adam and Eve or the angel guarding the Garden of Eden on earth shows me that I am correct in my analysis that as an Adventist you most likely never did any real studying. You never heard any relevant sermons - all watered down messages. And you were lured away by the first new and exciting thing that came to you. Humans are masters at rationalizing and you are a victim of it.


YOU STATED
"the wicked King of Tyre is being addressed..."

My comments
Read verses 12 and 13 - Has the king of Tyre been in Eden the Garden of God. Did this king have pipes and drums created in him when he was born?
In verse 15 - was Tyre "perfect" until sin was found in him?

Your comments are showing me that your reasoning is very flawed. It's not even a good argument. But yet you're suggesting to me "Proper interpretation demands consistency. You can't be literal in one verse and metaphoric in the next."


YOU STATED
"Why would God cover the fallen Lucifer with every precious stone?"

My comments
Isaiah is speaking of Lucifer before his fall - in his glorious condition before he sinned. Verse 13 says "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...." Notice it's past tense.

Again - you're telling me "Proper interpretation demands consistency."


MORE
The "they" in verse 16 would be the angels Lucifer was telling his lies to. The word "merchandise" is a commercial term that means trading. In other words Lucifer was conducting a transaction of sorts - he was trading his lies about God amongst the angels. Today we still use similar terms. If someone tells you a big old lie - don't we say something like "I'm not buying that." or "Don't sell me that garbage."?

This is what Lucifer was doing - he was selling his lies  to the angels of heaven.


YOU STATED
"Furthermore, the law (Torah given to Israel which included the Ten Commandments) was given until the Seed (Christ) came to fulfill it."

My comments
So the word "fulfill" means to abolish? What grammar are you using? That is a completely "private interpretation" (1 Peter 1:20). How do you come to the point where you believe this? This is why the Bible speaks of the fallen denominational churches as Babylon - confusion.

I could go on but I won't. Patricia I love your zeal but guys like Dale Ratzlaf and Des Ford have really confused you doctrinally. If you would have studied as hard as you seem to be now when you were an Adventist - you would have never left the faith. And I mean that.

God Bless, David

ANSWER: David,

Thank you for your response and zeal.:-)

You wrote:
I am amazed at your "exegesis" of Biblical passages.

Your stance on the "Seven Laws of Noah" are the pot calling the kettle black. You accuse Adventists of getting their theology from Ellen White and not the Bible but yet you are going outside of the Bible to try and uphold and release yourself from the obligation of the Ten Commandments. AMAZING!!! Wikipedia??? You're going to prove a Biblical point using Wikipedia???? We have to get better than this.

My response:

I have no desire to release myself from anything that the Lord wants me to do. The simple truth is that I am not an Israelite, I was not delivered from Egypt and I was not given the law given to Israel. The articles I shared were simply to show that there were other laws besides the Ten Commandments.

You accused me of being the pot calling the kettle black but the information provided is biblical. Wikipedia was referenced due to its simplicity on the subject but I did do better by submitting to you an article written by Jews which you did not bother to comment on. Was there a reason that you didn't. I will provide the link again for your perusal:  http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id105.html

Wasn’t the Old Testament written in Hebrew? If you agree with that fact, would you also agree that the Hebrews (Israelites) spoke Hebrew and God’s Words were given to them and they were eventually translated for the whole world to understand? Did the entire world speak Hebrew, I don’t think so. The Words of the Bible (OT) were given to the Israelites and the Old Testament addresses them as a nation specifically. I have no clue why, but you choose to ignore them as the only recipients of the law and insist on being included in Israel's covenant agreement. For instance:

Exodus 20:1-2 (KJV)
And God spake all these words, saying, 2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage .

Exodus 19:3-5 (KJV)
3  And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people : for all the earth is mine:

The Bible is plain. God is speaking to the Israelites. And what was the covenant between God and Israel? The Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34:28 (KJV)
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

You refuse to believe what the Bible plainly says. Even you have admitted that there were laws in the beginning, the only difference is that you insist that they were the Ten Commandments. Some SDAs have even questioned me for using Jewish writings which I find baffling since they are living under the covenant that was for Jews only.

And yes, there were laws for the Jews and there were separate laws for the Gentiles that you also will not acknowledge.

Ephesians 2:12 (NIV)
12  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise , without hope and without God in the world.

If the Gentiles were excluded from citizenship in Israel, how is it possible for them to be subjected to the law given to Israel?

I  wrote:

When God set Israel aside as His special people in accordance with His promise to Abraham, these seven laws were incorporated into the Torah given to Israel. Israel ended up with 613 written laws (Torah) and the Gentile nations were still under the Seven Noachide or universal laws. Gentiles were not required to take on the additional laws given to Israel.

You wrote:

This is purely fabricated falsehood. God doesn't have one set of rules for one people and another set of rules for another. The Eunuchs were not Israelites but notice what the Bible says:

Isaiah 56:4 "For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths , and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant"

Verse 5 says "Even unto them (the Enuchs) will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."

Now that is not matching with what you are trying to saying. God's covenant is for the human race - not just Israel exclusively. God chose Israel as a nation for a special purpose - to spread the news of the coming Messiah - to anyone who would listen - not just other Jews.

My response:

The first part of my answer I will use to share an email that I received from a rabbi a few years ago:

My Question:

From: Patricia Allen

I understand that the Torah consists of 613 laws including the Ten Commandments.
Are the 613 commandments considered a unit or are there categories like civil,
moral and ceremonial laws? When Scripture speaks of The Law, is it speaking of the
entire law (Torah)? Can the Ten Commandments be separated from the Torah?
Thanks for your response

Rabbi's Response:

Shalom Patricia,

I like your question, as there are some very important key concepts contained
within, important to Jews, and important to non-Jews. You have classified yourself
as a ben Noach, which is quite correct, as anyone who is not Jewish is under G-d's
Noachide Covenant. It is a positive thing to identify oneself honestly and
straightforwardly as a ben Noach for this is the direction G-d wants every non-Jew
to take. BTW: One should not think that G-d's Noachide Covenant is a simple set of
seven laws. It is nothing of the kind. It is an entire way of thinking, an entire way of
living, and it is a philosophical and intellectual exercise without end.

As to the Ten Commandments, there is no such thing. I realize that everyone thinks
it is the Ten Commandments, and therefore calling it anything else would be
troublesome, and as so even most knowing people stick to the title. However, the
Hebrew term for "Ten Commandments" would be, "Aseres Mitzvos," and that is
NOT what these commandments are called. They are called the "Aseres HaDibros,"
the Ten STATEMENTS. The Rambam (Maimonides) explains to us that the Aseres
Hadibros are actually 14 commandments, couched within Ten Statements.

You ask if the Aseres Hadibros stand alone away from the Torah, away from the
613? No, they do not. They are a reflection of G-d's complete law to the Jewish
people. The 613 do not stand alone either. AND, the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach
(Seven Laws of Noah) also do not stand alone. G-d's covenants to the Jews and to
the rest of humankind are all encompassing modes of daily behavior. What needs to
be clearly understood is that G-d's laws to the Jewish people are NOT the same as
G-d's laws to everyone else, and a person is to learn and follow HIS set of laws, be
they Jewish or Noachide. He is not to become confused and think he is to follow the
other person's rules.


The laws making up BOTH G-d's Jewish and Noachide covenants were both given
over at Sinai, and are both incorporated within G-d's Torah. The key to
understanding those laws, both Jewish and Noachide, lie with the knowledgeable
and observant of the recipients of those laws at Sinai, that is, the Jews
. The Aseres
HaDibros (Ten Statements) are NOT incumbent upon a ben Noach, and there are
sections, such as Shaboos observance, which is not even allowed for a ben Noach.
However, righteousness can be achieved BOTH by a Jew and by a ben Noach if he
understands and follows his own set of rules, and makes them the basis for his
continual improvement throughout his life.

I do hope this is helpful.
Regards, Eliahu Levenson
JewishAnswers.org

You will note that according to the Rabbi and what I discovered in my studies, there
was a set of laws for the Jews and there was a different set of laws for the Gentiles.
Each group was to abide by his own set of laws. The rabbi also stated that the law
given on Mt. Sinai was given as a unit. Therefore, the entire Torah, which included
the Ten Commandments, was nailed to the cross. You are free to continue to deny it but it doesn't change the facts.

The second part to my answer: I disagree that the eunuchs were not Israelites. Eunuchs could be foreigners or Israelites.

Deuteronomy 23:1 (AMP)

He who is wounded in the testicles, or has been made a eunuch, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

I am very much in agreement with you regarding the mission of the Israelites even though they became puffed up and proud and did not accomplish their mission. However, I would invite you to do a careful study of the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant was for Israel and the New Covenant is for all who believe whether they are Jews or Gentiles. When the Old Covenant is mixed with the New Covenant, there is much confusion. They are two separate dispensations.

The New Covenant became effective after Christ shed His blood, died for our sins and rose from the grave. Christ, born as a Jew (since the law was given to the Jews only), lived under the Old Covenant and fulfilled its requirements of perfect obedience to the law. His perfect obedience to the law that Israel could not keep and the blood price He paid for their/our redemption enabled the wall or barrier that separated Jews and Gentiles to be torn down. We all stand as equals at the foot of the cross.

God never turns His back on any individual who seeks Him. There were non-Israelites that left Egypt with the Israelites, who were called foreigners. As foreigners, who lived with them, they were required to obey the laws of Israel, which also included circumcision of the males in order to participate in their religious services, etc. No Jew or Gentile could keep the
Sabbaths, etc. without being circumcised. AS I am sure you know, other nations were not required to be circumcised because other nations were not given the Sabbath. I personally would refer to the foreigners as ‘house guests’ who had to live by the rules of the house of Israel. That didn’t make them Israelites, just individuals who had to conform to house rules and laws. However, anyone who converts to the Lord is accepted but only Israel was accepted as a nation set aside as God's special possession .

Exodus 19:3-6 (NIV)
3  Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel:
4  'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.
5  Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession . Although the whole earth is mine,
6  you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."     

God is clearly speaking to Israel only and not any other nation even though the whole world is His. As God, He can do as He chooses whether it makes sense to us or not. If we could figure Him out in our finite mines, He ceases to be God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (NIV)
11  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God .

You might recall that in Exodus 12:43 the stranger or foreigner could not partake of the Passover but the next verse and verses 48-49 states clearly that if the stranger or foreigner converted and was circumcised then he could partake of the Passover.

Exodus 12:43 (NIV)
The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Passover:    "No foreigner is to eat of it.

Exodus 12:48-49 (NIV)
"An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it. 49  The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."  
 
Under the New Covenant, males don’t have to be circumcised because it is irrelevant. God is interested in the condition of the heart.

Romans 2:29 (NIV)

29  No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

God did not make a tribe out of the foreigners. As you may recall, when they crossed the Jordan, the Israelites were instructed to gather twelve stones as a memorial for what the Lord had done for them. No stone was gathered nor set aside for the foreigners because they were not included as a part of Israel.

Joshua 4:1-7 (NIV)
1 When the whole nation had finished crossing the Jordan, the LORD said to Joshua,
2  "Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe ,
3  and tell them to take up twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan from right where the priests stood and to carry them over with you and put them down at the place where you stay tonight."     
4  So Joshua called together the twelve men he had appointed from the Israelites, one from each tribe ,
5  and said to them, "Go over before the ark of the LORD your God into the middle of the Jordan. Each of you is to take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites ,
6  to serve as a sign among you. In the future, when your children ask you, 'What do these stones mean?'
7  tell them that the flow of the Jordan was cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD. When it crossed the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan were cut off. These stones are to be a memorial to the people of Israel forever. "     

Again, (and I know you disagree) I would like to reiterate that Israel’s laws (except for the seven) were not applicable to the Gentile nations. The Bible makes that clear.

My question is: “If you believe you are obligated to keep the 7th day Sabbath, why do you confine Sabbath-keeping to the 7th day only when Israel was commanded to keep many Sabbaths (plural). The word Sabbaths was even included in the text you shared regarding the eunuch in Isaiah 56:4. If you can believe the testimony or the Word of God from the Bible written and handed down by the Jews, why is it out of the question to not read or believe any of their other writings? Everything we know about the Sabbath is outlined to us from the Jews as given to them by God. Why are some things accepted from them by you and others aren't? Are we allowed to pick and choose? Why do you not keep all of the Sabbaths? What tells you that the other SAbbaths are not to be kept by you since ALL of the Sabbaths were declared as holy (see Leviticus 23):

The 7th day Sabbath

Leviticus 23:1-3 (KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2  Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations<b>, even these are my feasts.
3  Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation ; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

<b>The Passover:


Leviticus 23:4-8 (KJV)

These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations , which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7  In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein .
8  But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

If you continue reading the balance of Leviticus 23, you will discover that not only is the 7th day Sabbath called a feast, a holy convocation and a day of rest but also the Passover, the feast of Pentecost, the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacle, etc. If all of them are called days of rest and holy convocations, why don’t you observe them all? What gives you the right or authority to observe only one?

You wrote:

About Lucifer in heaven

Your comments on Ezekiel 28 and whether it is speaking of Lucifer is surprising and much of it is pure rationalizing. Every denomination and scholar (that I know of) realizes this is speaking of Lucifer. It says "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (vs. 14)

For you to say this could be Adam and Eve or the angel guarding the Garden of Eden on earth shows me that I am correct in my analysis that as an Adventist you most likely never did any real studying. You never heard any relevant sermons - all watered down messages. And you were lured away by the first new and exciting thing that came to you. Humans are masters at rationalizing and you are a victim of it.

My response:

Like I said, I was just throwing out possibilities. My questions (not conclusions) are no more absurd than your rationalized conclusions that this text proves that the Ten Commandments were in heaven as well as your rationalized conclusion that “FOR A LAW” meant the Ten Commandments when it meant the land God had promised Abraham AND as well as your rationalized conclusion that Lucifer covered the mercy seat.

I am by no means an authority on what Ezekiel was saying, however, I do know for sure that he was talking to the King of Tyre and in some instances likened him to Lucifer. And, yes, believe it or not, there are people who differ from your conclusion. Here is a great link that I would invite you to consider: http://www.craigkeener.com/category/old-testament/ezekiel/

There are other comments you made regarding Ezekiel that I will not address in reference to what I wrote previously because in my opinion it would be pure speculation on both our parts.

You wrote:

NEED MORE PROOF?
1 Chronicles 16:15-17: "Be ye mindful always of his covenant ... Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Patricia - it doesn't get any plainer then this text. The SAME covenant that had been made with Israel had been made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - it says "FOR A LAW" - long before it was written on stone at Sinai. How awesome is the Bible?

My response:

I do believe you are putting more into these verses than what they actually say. If I am understanding what you wrote correctly, you are using “FOR A LAW” as referring to the Ten Commandments that you believe God gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as an everlasting covenant “long before it was written on stone at Sinai.” God’s covenant with Abraham had nothing to do with the law or a law . God’s covenant with Abraham was to make his seed into a great nation and to deliver them to the land of Canaan as an inheritance. That was God’s promise to Abraham, which was like a law (everlasting promise) because His Word would not fail and He would keep His Word in due time. If you recall, He even told Abraham that his descendants would be in bondage for 400 years and He would deliver them (see Genesis 15:13). That was His Word and His Word stands forever or until what He has promised is fulfilled or comes to pass.

Let’s look at what “FOR A LAW’ (different meaning from ‘the law”) was really referring to in verse 18 (which you did not share) in its proper context:

1 Chronicles 16:16-18 (KJV)

16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law , and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

The NIV reads:
1 Chronicles 16:16-18 (NIV)
16  the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac.
17  He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree , to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
18  "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit ."  
 
As you will note, “FOR A LAW” is NOT referring to the Ten Commandments (THE law) but it is referring to the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham, then Isaac and then Jacob. As previously mentioned, the covenant was to give Abraham’s descendants the land of Canaan as their inheritance.  

You wrote:

YOU STATED
"Furthermore, the law (Torah given to Israel which included the Ten Commandments) was given until the Seed (Christ) came to fulfill it."

My comments
So the word "fulfill" means to abolish? What grammar are you using? That is a completely "private interpretation" (1 Peter 1:20). How do you come to the point where you believe this? This is why the Bible speaks of the fallen denominational churches as Babylon - confusion.

My response:
Using the analogy of a contract (aka covenant), it is no longer valid when the terms have been fulfilled or completed. For instance, I purchase a car for a stated amount for a stated period of time at a stated interest rate. When the requirements of that particular contract between me and whomever has been met in full (meaning I paid the stated amount for the stated period of time and the interest rate), I am given my agreed upon contract stamped “Paid in full” (nullify, cancel, abolish) and my car title is signed over to me in my name as the only owner. The contract’s obligations have been met (fulfilled, completed in full) and the contract is no longer valid (not forcible, abolished, stamped out) or effective in any manner.

So what does the Bible say about the word abolished?

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:15 (NIV)
15  by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Perhaps, your question about what grammar I am using should be addressed to the writers and interpreters of the Bible, because the Bible clearly states that “the law of commandments contained in ordinances” (decrees or commands, per the dictionary) were abolished in His flesh. Unless you now decide to give the words “law of commandments” a meaning other than the Ten Commandments and the laws that explained how they were to be kept, the author is clearly referring to the 613 laws (Torah) given to the Israelites which included the Ten Commandments.

Also, your comment about the fallen denominational churches being Babylon is your and the SDA church’s private rationalized interpretation. The Bible promotes love and unity but unfortunately the SDA church promotes discord and division by loudly proclaiming (as you have done) that all non SDA denominations are fallen and the harlots and daughters of Babylon. The rationalized reasoning is because of the differences of opinion about what the Bible says about a day of worship. The comment is very insulting and unkind and it makes you look like the arrogant and judgmental Pharisees in the days of Christ who thought they were so much better than others. This is not the spirit of Christ nor the ministry of reconciliation that Christ would have His children promoting. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing but there is a right and wrong way to do it.

You say other denominations are “confused” but at least they aren’t “confused” about what covenant they are under and they aren't attempting to be modern Jews when they have not been asked to. Israel is still very much in tact and at the appointed time when the full number of the Gentiles have been gathered in, He will visit Israel again and do His saving work.

Romans 11:25 (NIV)
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

David, I can only share what I believe the Bible is saying and I am always open for correction, new thoughts and interpretations but they have to be validated with the whole Bible and not choice proof texts taken out of context. I cannot say for certain that you and I will never agree because the Holy Spirit has a way of working things out far beyond our expectations and when we least expect. I do believe you to be sincere in your beliefs (as I am in mine) but I would lovingly invite you to really and carefully study the Old and New Covenants because understanding them changes everything.  The Old Covenant is not an extension of the New Covenant or  “not that much different” from the New Covenant as I was formerly taught. They are entirely and completely different.

I apologize that some of my comments may seen a little disjointed in some places but there was just so much to address and I felt like I should add texts as references to make my point. Take care and continue to be blessed.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Patricia,
Thanks for your reply but again sound reasoning is not applied to Scripture.

I provided plain Biblical texts and you just don't see.

Again - you allow Jews of today (an outside source form the Bible) to interpret a Biblical point(?) How does the Bible being written in Hebrew and a Jewish person today who speaks Hebrew - how does this make the Hebrew speaking person an authority on the Bible? You are on dangerous ground when you do this.

2 Tim. 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

You are seeking council from those who will tell you what you want to hear.


You quoted Ephesians 2:15 but please read it as it reads - " the law of commandments contained in ordinances..." - The Ten Commandments were not ordinances.

About the covenant
Again - Jer. 11:4, 5  - 1 Chronicles 16:15-17  - Deuteronomy 29 (see esp. vs. 14, 15) show unmistakeably that the same covenant that was given to Israel at Sinai was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The texts say it so plainly even a child could understand it.

Here is Jer. 11 from the NIV - since you like quoting the NIV so much:
Jer. 11
15 He remembers his covenant forever,the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
16 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac.
17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
18 “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit.”

Instead of accepting what the Bible plainly says you go to other teachers, having itching ears.

For the record - I am under the New Covenant - the law is written in my heart.

God Bless, David

Answer
David,

Thanks for your response and due to other projects I am working on, this will have to be my last response to you regarding this subject.

I accept what the Bible says but you can't see what it says. Proof of my point is the text you just quoted:

You wrote:

Here is Jer. 11 from the NIV - since you like quoting the NIV so much:
Jer. 11
15 He remembers his covenant forever,the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
16 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac.
17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
18 “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit.”

My response:

Yes, I do like the NIV as well as the ESV, NLT, NKJV, HCSB and The Complete Jewish Bible. In case you did not notice, I quoted the KJV also and the text quoted was from 1 Chronicles, not Jeremiah 11 as you indicated.

I never disagreed with you that the same covenant that was given to Abraham was also given to Isaac and Jacob. We disagreed that the covenant was the Ten Commandments . Following is what I wrote in my response to you regarding the same:

I wrote:
"As you will note, “FOR A LAW” is NOT referring to the Ten Commandments (THE law) but it is referring to the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham, then Isaac and then Jacob. As previously mentioned, the covenant was to give Abraham’s descendants the land of Canaan as their inheritance."

My response:

You misquoted what I said . To reiterate, take note that I said the everlasting covenant was made with Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob. We disagreed on what the covenant was. The text plainly says:

"....to Israel as an everlasting covenant." Then there's a colon and after the colon the everlasting covenant is revealed. The everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was, "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit."

I don't know why you can't see it. Everything that I have shared with you can be confirmed in the Bible.

You wrote:
You quoted Ephesians 2:15 but please read it as it reads - " the law of commandments contained in ordinances..." - The Ten Commandments were not ordinances.

My response:

Let's look at two translations of Ephesians 2:15 as follows:

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:15 (The Complete Jewish Bible)
15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. (The Complete Jewish Bible)

Notes for 2:15
By his death, Christ ended the angry resentment between Jews and Gentiles, caused by the Jewish laws that favored the Jews and excluded the Gentiles. Christ died to abolish that whole system of Jewish laws . Then he took the two groups that had been opposed to each other and made them parts of himself. "One new man" means that Christ made a single entity or person out of the two. Thus he fused all believers together to become one in himself.
— Life Application Bible Notes

Regarding the word "ordinance". According to the dictionary an ordinance is:

noun
1.authoritative rule or law; a decree or command.
2.a public injunction or regulation: a city ordinance against excessive horn blowing.
3.something believed to have been ordained, as by a deity or destiny.
4.Ecclesiastical
a.an established rite or ceremony.
b.a sacrament.
c.the communion.

Definition of commandment:
noun
1.a command or mandate.
2.(sometimes initial capital letter) any of the ten commandments.
3.the act or power of commanding.

Definition of decree:
noun
a formal and authoritative order, especially one having the force of law: a presidential decree.
2.Law. a judicial decision or order.
3.Theology . one of the eternal purposes of God, by which events are foreordained.
verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
4.to command, ordain, or decide by decree.

I hope you can clearly see that the words commandments,decrees and ordinances can be used interchangeably because they are all decrees and commands. The Ten Commandments are laws, decrees and ordinances. A only ceremonial ordinance in the Ten is the Sabbath, an established rite or ceremony.

It's been interesting. May God bless you in all of your studies and endeavors.

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Patricia Allen

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As a former Seventh-day Adventist (SDA), I have insight of value to those who are questioning and/or trying to decide if they should leave or become an SDA. It would be my privilege to discuss SDA church doctrine, structure, Ellen White, the old and new covenants, and their various beliefs. The Bible will be my main source of reference and all quotes, etc. will be documented. I understand that there are different variants of Adventists, but I am only familiar with what I would call traditional or main stream.

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I was a Seventh-day Adventist for over 50 years. I attended their schools and I was always active in the churches I attended. I also worked for the denomination for 37 years. Since I was educated in their schools from Grade 1, and because what I was taught came from the Bible, I never questioned my beliefs. I considered myself as one whom the Lord had chosen to bring out of darkness into His marvelous light. In the year 2005, I became keenly aware that Ellen White contradicted the Scriptures numerous times and plagiarized some of her most popular writings. At this point, I had to seriously consider studying for myself with the aid of the Holy Spirit to see if indeed I really had the truth. Sad to say, I discovered that I was deluded and deliberately deceived by the church I loved and served. In 2010, I requested that my name be withdrawn from the membership roster of the church. Since then, it has been my passion to tell those in the SDA church and those considering joining Adventism, the truth and freedom that I have discovered and enjoy daily. I interact on Facebook with SDAs frequently regarding their beliefs and doctrines compared to the Bible. In addition to answering questions on this site, I have a blog (www.patricia-allen.blogspot.com) and the purpose of my articles is to expose the false doctrines of the SDA church After 50 plus years of trying to 'work' my way, I have discovered the sweet rest in the finished work of my Savior. I've also discovered that there is nothing that I have ever done to make Jesus love me less and there is nothing that I can ever do to make Jesus love me more. Jesus just loves me and this I know!

Education/Credentials
M.A.O.M. degree (Master of Arts in Organizational Management). I also have a B.A.I.C. degree (Born Again in Christ). My calling is to help spread the Good News of the Gospel and to help lift the veil by sharing Jesus, Who is the Truth and the Light.

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