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Seventh-Day Adventists/4th angel message questions and thoughts



I was reading some particular points on this website about what you believe in the 4th angel message.

I believe in all the angels messages, the 4th angel really is a wrap of all 3 in great power which is what will be the last sound warning to the world not only churches.

I'm an Adventist by meaning not by name, I do not belong to the SDA. I have many reasons to believe SDA has rejected the light of the messages. This does not mean to me that there are no sincere people and leaders in SDA. But if the leadership as whole rejected it, it is a problem.

It amazes me how lightly the SDA put Wagoner and Jones on the shelf, and brought a few statements later that they believed the message but yet their actions have not been of that.

Have you ever looked into those messages, how it first came in 1888 then in the 1950's was revived but the church did not really accept it? Finally have you ever heard of Fred T wright Message. He used to be an Australian teacher in the SDA that greatly fought against the rejection of the message of Wagoner and Jones and eventually they kicked him out because he did not agree with the churches stand on this. There were several points to these arguments. One being the praying and repenting of the forefathers sins. Also SDA seems to have gone away from the truth in righteousness by faith.

I'm very interested because of some comments of yours seem to be very against what SDA is doing now....

Today, most all are very confused about Adventist history and doctrine, none more so than the SDA’s themselves.  Both the theology and history associated with the Three Angels Messages, including 1844 and 1888, are purposefully misunderstood and manipulated by the modern Denomination.  Truth no longer matters to the SDA leaders.  

Thus the Adventists have become their own worst enemy as their search for Gospel truth has long ago been replaced with myth, dishonest tradition, and a Creed that is enforced with unrelenting, mind numbing, corporate control.  False doctrine, Money, and Control are the driving forces within the modern SDA church.  Such a triad is fatal.

This explains why over 10 million baptized members have left the SDA Denomination during the past 50 years.  However, the actual number of those rejecting SDA theology and practice is much higher.  

Let all understand that the modern, SDA church, has self-destructed right in front of our eyes over the past 40 years.  It is only a matter of time before there is a total and complete collapse of the 3rd Angels Message, for the second time, the first collapse being in Battle Creek.  

In fact, had the Battle Creek SDA’s not self-destructed at the end of the 19th century, they would have never relocated to Takoma Park, where they tried to make some corrections, and to continue the mission of the 3rd Angels Message.  

The point here is to understand there is a pattern to how the Three Angels Messages operates; failure pushes the church forward to the next improved level of theological understanding.  Thus failure has a purpose, even as error plays a major role in the ongoing paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.

Third Angels Message Terminated

Today, there should be no doubt that the 3rd Angels Message, which is a synonymous term for Traditional SDA theology, has crashed and burned for all to see.  The SDA’s no longer have a united or credible doctrine about the Gospel, the Sabbath, or the end of the world.  The Adventists are mired in great confusion and schism, close to a complete meltdown.

The historic, 3rd message, which started in 1847, is no longer “present truth.”  What made sense two centuries ago, is no longer fully understood, much less credible or functional in the 21st century. What is taught by the Denomination today about SDA theology and history is full of myth, error, and double-talk, which is why their useless theology is in ruins today, mocked by most all.  

Modern Adventism has been reduced to a confused wasteland of double-talk, confusion, and schism for all to see.  Without Gospel Reform, the Advent Movement will die.

What is the answer to this crisis?  What can be done to save the Advent Movement?   

The answer is simple.  The Adventist Community must repent for the errors of the failed 3rd Angels Message and move forward to the Fourth Angels Message, which is the final theological paradigm for the church.

Three Angels Messages & the 4th

The Three Angels Messages, as a historic, prophetic paradigm, has been badly misunderstood by the modern SDA’s.  This eschatological paradigm, which is also called the Adventist Apocalyptic, includes the 4th Angels Message, which, according to the Pioneers, is the final culmination of the Three A’s.  

This is the reason why the 1888 history is so fascinating for SDA’s, not because there was theological debate, but because Ellen White associated this Gospel debate with the beginning of the 4th Angels Message.  Waggoner and Jones controversial theology about the Two Covenants and the law in Galatians was paradigm shifting.  Thus, 1888 marks the arrival of this final message, or at least some components of what would become the next message, the 4th.  Too bad the leaders hid this debate from the church, preventing the 4th Angels Message from being understood by the Takoma Park Adventists.

Adventist eschatology teaches that the final Loud Cry of the Gospel, along with the Tribulation, and the 2nd Coming, ALL take place under the 4th Angels Message, not the 3rd.  Which means -- the 3rd Angels Message must cease, so the next message can take center stage.  And this is exactly what has taken place with the demise of Adventism following Glacier View.

Today, there is no hope that the 3rd Angels Message can be repaired, salvaged, or made to function correctly.  Its’ time has past.  The Advent Movement must go forward to the Gospel based, 4th Angels Message.  The sooner the better for the church.

However, without a clear and correct understanding of the Three Angels Messages, there is no possibility that the 4th and last level of Adventist theology can be correctly comprehended.  Consequently, the history of Adventism must first be untangled and de-mythologized before trying to move forward to understand this final theological level that has been the ultimate goal of Adventist theology since the early days.

Here are some points to understand about the Three Angels Messages:

1.) Each Message Represents A Time Period

Each of the Three Angels Messages, including the 4th, represents time periods, as well as some key doctrine.  No two “messages” can be active at the same time, and in fact, one must fail before the next level can be discovered and embraced.  

William Miller discovered the 1st Angels Message in 1818.  This “message” ended in the Spring of 1844, which was Miller's initial time period predicted for the 2nd Coming and the end of the world.  When that eschatology failed, the Adventists made corrections and went forward to the 2nd Angels Message.  That is when the date of October 22, 1844 replaced the earlier position associated with the 1st Angels Message.

2.) No IJ in the 1st Angels Message;

While the modern SDA’s claim to follow their Pioneers, including Ellen White, they are just pretending.  The modern SDA’s have long ago made up their own false version of Historic Adventism, including teaching this error that the “hour of his judgment has come” is a reference to the IJ.  Unless this fundamental error is corrected, the Three Angels Messages, which includes the 4th, cannot be comprehended.

Rev. 14:6   And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

This prophetic “message” about the 2nd Coming was foundational for the Advent Movement.  It featured not only the Protestant Gospel, but also the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world.  The IJ was unknown during the entire period of both the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages.  And when it was developed, under the 3rd Angels Message in 1857, the Pioneers never placed it back into the 1st Angels Message.  It was never a “pillar” in Rev 14, much less a foundational doctrine as many incorrectly claim.

This unauthorized change to Adventist eschatology was made by the Takoma Park apologists who indoctrinated all SDA’s into believing the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message, when that was never true.  The sad outcome of Glacier View turned this myth into present truth for the modern SDA’s, and as a result, MILLIONS walked out the door.  

The majority of SDA’s today correctly reject the IJ, and the Old Covenant legalism that is associated with such a doctrine.  This point will never change.

Let all understand that this official view about the IJ being part of the 1st Angels Message was an outright fabrication; a repudiation of the facts in order to defend false doctrine.  And to this day, the Denomination refuses to be honest about the historical development of the Advent Movement or the Protestant Gospel.  The SDA’s today are committed to defending historical fraud and false doctrine.  Which is why MILLIONS have left and so too many more when they also find out that the SDA’s are being very, very dishonest.

Neither William Miller, Ellen White nor Uriah Smith ever taught that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message.  No one in 19th century Adventism ever made such a foolish blunder.  While the Pioneers were not free from error, this is not one that they made, even though the modern leaders teach otherwise.

All 19th century SDA’s understood that there is only one Judgment Pillar in the Three Angels Messages, and they were unanimous that Rev 14: 7 is all about the Judgment Day of the 2nd Advent.  (Hence the name Adventists!)    

The IJ is a false doctrine that must be repudiated by all SDA’s.  It was never a “pillar” in the 1st Angels Message, as the White Estate and the Review have claimed, much less one that displaces the 2nd Coming, and promotes crass legalism.  Nor can the IJ ever be associated with the 4th Angels Message.  There is no place for the IJ in Adventist Eschatology because it is false, anti-Gospel doctrine.

The IJ is not a “pillar” whatsoever, much less one that is based in Rev 14: 7.  Until this great, anti-Gospel, anti-Adventist, IJ error is confessed, and Glacier View reversed, the Adventists will never be able to understand the Gospel or the Three Angels Messages correctly, much less the 4th, which is the point of all three.  

3.) No Sunday Laws

Adventists today fail to comprehend, not only the correct definition of the 1st Angels Message, but also the 4th Angels Message, which they teach is about the Sunday laws and obedience to the Sabbath Law of the 4th Commandment.   But both of these points are wrong.

The Time of Trouble has nothing to do with Sunday laws, which means the SDA’s need to update and reform their eschatology.

The Tribulation

Return To Original Interpretation of Rev 14: 7

At this point, the modern SDA’s have repudiated and changed the foundational message for the Three A’s by inserting myth and error into Adventist history and theology.  The leaders have even gone so far as to claim that Ellen White teaches the IJ is located in Rev 14: 7 when she NEVER took such a position at any time in her life, and neither did James White or any SDA.  

I repeat: No one in Battle Creek ever claimed what is now taught today about the IJ.  Contrary to what took place at Glacier View, the IJ is not located in Rev 14: 7, or anywhere else in the Bible.  Anyone that thinks otherwise does not understand the history of the Advent Movement or the definition of the 1st Angels Message. Nor do they understand the other Messages, much less the Gospel.  

Adventist history must be correctly and honestly understood if there is going to be forward eschatological progress to the 4th Angels Message.  In other words, the IJ must be repudiated so that the doctrine of the 2nd Coming, which is the Day of Judgment, can once again become a featured part of the final Gospel Message that is to be proclaimed as a Loud Cry just before the Tribulation and 2nd Advent.  

4th Angels Message

The SDA’s refer to this future period in Rev 18 as the 4th Angels Message.  This Gospel based, judgment driven, message will prepare the honest of heart for the great Tribulation and the Judgment Day.  It will include only correct Gospel doctrines and credible eschatology.

Rev. 18:1  After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “1aFallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:3 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”

Rev. 18:4  I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Rev 18 is where the focus of the Advent Movement must migrate.  The 3rd Angels Message from Rev 14 is past, and now the time of the Fourth has come.  And yes, it includes all the correct doctrines and pillars that were featured in the previous messages.

Progress Through Failure

The Three Angels Messages, which includes the 4th Angel, operates in a certain, specific way.  One principle states that only one “message” can be active at any time.  This means that before the next message is located, the previous message must fail.  So failure is built into the paradigm, for without it, there could be no forward progress to the next message.

The discovery of doctrinal error, and its subsequent correction, is what moves the church forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic. There could have been no 3rd Angels Message if the 2nd Message, which featured the date for the 2nd Coming on October 22, 1844, had not been wrong.  Thus it was failure that forced the early Adventists to find correction and move forward to the next level.  

Because both the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages were time sensitive, - when the dates expired, so too did the failed prophetic message.  Once the featured date for the 2nd Coming failed, so too did that “message.”

During the early years of the Advent Movement, the Adventists were forced to face the fact, a number of times, that there was serious error with their theology.  Such an admission led to correction and the next level.  Had the early Adventists refused to admit their errors, there could have been no forward progress to the next level.  

Today, the SDA leaders need to admit that the 3rd Angels Message is full of error, myth, and confusion that needs to be addressed and corrected.  This is the proper attitude that leads to the next message, which is the 4th.  But so far, the modern leaders do not care a hoot about reforming the dying Advent Movement, nor will they repent as directed by the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment in Rev 3: 14.

Repentance Necessary

Perhaps the leaders fail to understand that repentance is the key to forward progress within the Adventist Apocalyptic.  This painful and embarrassing collapse (twice) of Adventist theology in 1844 forced a paradigm shift within the Three Angels Messages, which becomes manifest in the next updated, corrected, and reformed messages.  Thus the theological errors associated with the 1st Angels Message gives way to corrections made in the 2nd Angels message, and so on with the 3rd Angels Message, of which there are two periods, the first in Battle Creek and another in Takoma Park.   

Today, this process continues.  The present collapse of the 3rd Angels Message cannot be ignored, as if nothing is wrong.  Only be admitting the obvious and telling the truth can the church go forward to the next, much needed level.  Thus the present failure of the 3rd Angels Message will lead directly to the discovery and articulation of the 4th Angels Message.  

Failure, followed by reform and progress is how Adventist eschatology functions.  Adventist Reform understands how this prophetic paradigm works, which is why it articulates, promotes, and represents the 4th Angels Message.  

Adventist Reform is the proper path for the self-destructing Adventist Community.  It is “Present Truth” for the 21st century.

Adventist Reform

3rd Angel Terminated in 1980

Let all understand that the Third Angels Message terminated in 1980, at Glacier View.  This is when the leaders repudiated the Gospel and the Adventist fundamental about the Second Coming being the Judgment in Rev 14: 7.

This is also the year when the Denomination developed and foisted a false Creed on the church, pushing out those, like Dr. Ford that protested.  

Since 1980, - MILLIONS of once loyal SDA’s have realized that the 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned, - just like all the previous Advent messages.  Consequently, MILLIONS have left the church, and more leave all the time because the Third Angels Message, as a credible theological paradigm, has collapsed for all to see.  

SDA theology is no longer functional or true, and most everyone knows this fact, except those workers paid to believe.  Adventist theology today is Old Covenant, not New Covenant.  This is why Adventism has been rejected by its own Community as well as the rest of the world.  It is full of false doctrine, even as it arrogantly denies any error.

Leaving the SDA Church

While many today bemoan the wretched state of the Advent Movement, such a crisis is nothing new or surprising.  This pattern of “progress and then failure” is what drives Adventist eschatology forward.  Thus the present failure will drive the 21st century Adventist Movement forward to the 4th and last Adventist message.  There is no other sane direction for the Movement to go.

Here is a link to a discussion about the 4th Angels Message:

What is the 4th Angel's Message?

1888 Gospel Debate

As for 1888, the 20th century SDA leaders hid the facts about this infamous Gospel Debate, substituting myths and diversions in a dishonest effort to control and mislead the Takoma Park Denomination.  Mission accomplished.  This fraud resulted in the development of what is called Traditional, 20th century, Adventism, complete with the myth about the IJ being located in Rev 14: 7.

White Estate/ Hidden Documents

Waggoner and Jones, as well as Ellen White, were true Gospel Reformers; but the Battle Creek leaders refused to admit that the church held any theological errors, much less repent of their Sabbath based legalism.  This rejection of Gospel Truth resulted in the meltdown of the Battle Creek Empire and the retreat to Takoma Park, where the very same mistakes were made once again.  

Until the truth about what happened in 1888 is made public, and the White Estate repents for their massive cover-up and publishing fraud, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct for cause.

Fred T. Wright

As for the late Fred T. Wright, he is one of many that were confused by the many errors of Traditional Adventism.  He embraced Weilands twisted views about 1888 and promoted perfectionism, not the Gospel, as the point of the 4th Angels Message.  He was an enemy of Dr. Ford and the Protestant Gospel.  Here are some links.

Living Righteously - Fred T. Wright

A clear modern presentation of the gospel of deliverance from the bondage of sin. It clearly explains what sin is, how Christ handles it, and how we can have pure hearts and live victorious lives. The author, Fred Wright, was a Seventh-day Adventist, but the message of this book is for all people.

Keywords: gospel; advent; 1888; judgment; victory; sin; righteousness; waggoner; jones; sda; sra; fred; wright

Living Righteously

“Behold Your God” by Fred Wright (1979)


Today, the Advent Movement is dying because they have ignored and turned away from the Prophetic Fundamentals that originally defined them.  Ellen White warned the SDA’s to beware such evil, but like the Jews, they refuse to listen.  

If the Adventists want to rise from the dead and go forward with Prophetic meaning and Gospel purpose, they must first repent, and once again become focused on eschatology and the end of the world.  They must correct the errors made under the 3rd Angels Message and move forward to develop and proclaim the 4th Angels Message, which is a New Covenant based paradigm, not a law based one like the 3rd.   Who knows how much time is left before the End of the World…?

Dan. 12:1  “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Eschatology is why the Advent Movement came into existence, and why they became famous.  If they want to survive, they must return to their noble apocalyptical mission to prepare the last church for the great tribulation, as well as for the Second Coming, which is the great Judgment Day and the end of the world.  

The End of the world is much closer today than it was in 1844.  Our world is wired and set up to explode like no other time in history.  Few are ready.

Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:42  “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

I hope this answers your questions and gives you some resources for further study.

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

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I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.


Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform.

Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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