Seventh-Day Adventists/Colossians 2:16

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QUESTION: Tom,

Thanks for your many answers to questions related to SDA history and theology.  I agree with you on most things. I am particularly interested in two things:

1. Where can I find statistics on the " Millions have gone through this same journey of spiritual discovery and disappointment." regarding the no. of people leaving the SDA church (in N. America?). ref: Index » Adventist Reform - Tom Norris » Leaving the SDA Church.

2. Isn't it the case that "the sabbath was made for man", is a reference to creation and Adam as a representative of mankind? Consequently,  the prophecy of Hosea 2:1 - 11 (specifically v11) fulfilled almost word for word in Colossians 2:8 - 16 (particularly v16) cannot  refer to the weekly Sabbath since the weekly Sabbath is not, and never has been, "her"  (Israel's) Sabbath.  In other words, isn't it the case that God, speaking through Hosea, prophesied that Israel's Sabbaths would be put to an end and isn't it the case that Paul in Colossians 2:14 - 16 documents fulfilment and the implications of that fulfilment?

3. Isn't what you describe as "silly", regarding the discussion of the distinction and relevance of the moral and ceremonial laws, the basis of the discussion at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15?

I humbly request that having read your threads on the subject that we frame this as a Bible discussion.  I am not interested in how wrong SDA doctrine is, or the historical development of the SDA theology. This might help people with similar questions.  

Forgive me for pointing out my view that there is no such thing as a silly question or discussion.  The sincere searcher after truth will have questions.  Those of us that have a desire to impart our understanding of scripture should encourage sincere enquiry regardless of how "silly" it might appear.

Might I also point out that if you disagree with me, or my understanding, I will not call you or your position names. I do welcome disagreement though - it forces me to revisit the scriptures.

Finally, to be fair to you since I have your biography, I have been disfellowshipped from the SDA church for "not keeping my private views to myself". I still attend the SDA church, in my view the closest to the truth of the Bible. Everything I believe is based solely on personal Bible study. I do not have any theological training.

I pray that God continues to bless your ministry as I feel that you are trying to effect a reformation in the hearts and minds of all believers.

ANSWER: Carlton said:  Thanks for your many answers to questions related to SDA history and theology.  I agree with you on most things. I am particularly interested in two things:

Tom said:  Thank you.  Adventist Reform is for those like you, who want to know more about the Gospel, church history, and doctrine.  

It is for those who understand that the SDA’s are not willing to tell the truth about much of anything.   

It is for those who want to go forward to the New Covenant, not backwards to the Old Covenant.  

Carlton said:  1. Where can I find statistics on the "Millions have gone through this same journey of spiritual discovery and disappointment." regarding the no. of people leaving the SDA church (in N. America?). ref: Index » Adventist Reform - Tom Norris » Leaving the SDA Church.

Tom Norris replied:  Today, the SDA’s are unable to grow in North America because their doctrines are so convoluted, Old Covenant, and wrong.  

In fact, the SDA’s are viewed in a very negative light, with the loudest criticism coming from former members.  

See the following links that speak to this question:

Decline in attendance
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/Decline-attendance.htm

membership decline
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2008/5/membership-decline

Attendance statistics
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2008/1/Attendance-statist

Future trends in the SDA church
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2011/3/Future-trends-SDA-

Carlton asked:  2. Isn't it the case that "the sabbath was made for man", is a reference to creation and Adam as a representative of mankind?

Consequently, the prophecy of Hosea 2:1 - 11 (specifically v11) fulfilled almost word for word in Colossians 2:8 - 16 (particularly v16) cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath since the weekly Sabbath is not, and never has been, "her"  (Israel's) Sabbath.  In other words, isn't it the case that God, speaking through Hosea, prophesied that Israel's Sabbaths would be put to an end and isn't it the case that Paul in Colossians 2:14 - 16 documents fulfillment and the implications of that fulfillment?

Tom replied:  In the passage you cite, Jesus refers primarily to the original Sabbath that he made at Creation.  He is not referring to the OC Sabbath of Moses, which was a temporary or “tutor” Sabbath of the Jews.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

As for the OT book of Hosea; there is a passage that predicts God will punish Israel for worshipping false Gods.

Hos. 2:11 “I will also put an end to all her gaiety,
  Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths
  And all her festal assemblies.

Hos. 2:12 “I will destroy her vines and fig trees,
  Of which she said, ‘These are my wages
  Which my lovers have given me.’
And I will make them a forest,
And the beasts of the field will devour them.

Hos. 2:13 “I will punish her for the days of the Baals
  When she used to offer sacrifices to them
And adorn herself with her earrings and jewelry,
And follow her lovers, so that she forgot Me,” declares the LORD.

Here is depicted the destruction of Judaism, and the end of Israel as a Nation.  So too the end of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses.

Moreover, the reference to “her Sabbaths” is a reference to the 7th day of the Moral law, even as it also includes all the ceremonial laws as well as the Temple and Levitical Priesthood.  The passage is saying that Israel will be so totally destroyed, including their fields, that it will never exist again the way it was in the OT.  

OT Judaism was destroyed in 70 AD.  The Romans ended the Nation of Israel, including their Temple and religion.  The Jewish Nation did not come back on the world scene until after WWII, -but not OC Judaism.  It was destroyed when the Temple was razed. It could only come back if the Temple is rebuilt.

While the OC Sabbath of the Jews can be viewed as destroyed, that does not apply to the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is very different.  Such a doctrine came to light in the 1st century, even as this same doctrine will return to the repentant church in the last days.

Note that the OT does not instruct the NT.  Jesus clearly teaches a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church.  One that is very different from what Moses taught.  

What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the New Covenant Sabbath is truth for the church, regardless what we think the OT may or may not say.  What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath, or anything, cannot be trumped by the OT or any NT writer.  The word of Christ is Gospel truth, not the word of Hosea.

As for Colossians, it does not say what many claim:

Col. 2:16  Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance 2belongs to Christ.

This passage does not teach that there is no Sabbath doctrine for the church.  Rather, it says no one is to “judge” how church members are observing the Sabbath and some of the festivals, like Passover.  Nor should anyone, like the Judaizers in the church, pass judgment on how the Sabbath is observed.  

Thus there is no Sabbath Police in the NT.  Nor are there any rules or laws that prevent activity or work on the Sabbath, as in Judaism.  Jesus gives all that follow him an exemption from the prohibition against work contained in the 4th Commandment.  

This passage in Colossians actually shows there is a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.  It does not teach that there is no Sabbath for the church, nor does it explain or define the NC Sabbath.  All must go to the Gospels for such instruction; directly to the Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath.  If anyone wants to understand the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ, they must go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn this true doctrine directly from him.

The Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228


Carlton asked:  3. Isn't what you describe as "silly", regarding the discussion of the distinction and relevance of the moral and ceremonial laws, the basis of the discussion at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15?

Tom said:  Unfortunately, I often have to deal with those who ask useless, repetitive, and silly questions, designed not to find truth, but promote error and false doctrine.  I find such questions silly and not serious.  Don’t take this personally.  Those to whom such remarks are directed get the point.

Here is an example of me using the word “silly”.  I make no apologies for this word or for calling this religious charlatan a “con man.”  

Tom Norris said:  As for Amazing facts, they should be ashamed for teaching so much false doctrine and silly myth.  Doug Batchlor is neither a theologian nor an Adventist historian.  Rather, he is a smooth talker that finds comfort in the Old Covenant confusion of the SDA's.  He is nothing more than a religious con man: a paid performer and public relations man that is following a cultic script written by the 20th century SDA's.”

Such wolves in sheep’s clothing do not deserve smooth words or congratulations for leading people away from the Gospel.  Those who understand the Gospel must condemn them for all to see, so that the sheep may be warned.

Carlton said:  I humbly request that having read your threads on the subject that we frame this as a Bible discussion.  I am not interested in how wrong SDA doctrine is, or the historical development of the SDA theology. This might help people with similar questions.  

Tom said:  I make no apologies for promoting Adventist Reform and trying to save the dying and confused Advent Movement.  The Adventists have much truth, and in fact, they are responsible for correcting the great error of post-millennialism, which the entire church has now correctly rejected thanks to Adventism.  

Few people give the Adventist Movement proper credit for their correct doctrine about the 2nd Coming, which no had support in the early 19th century.  Thus what all denominations teach today about the 2nd Coming is a basic result of the Advent Movement.

The SDA’s are also correct to claim that Sunday is a very false doctrine and that only the 7th day can be the Lord’s Day for the church.  

They are even correct about the State of the Dead, which is doctrine that played a role in the Reformation, specifically by the great Reformer, Martin Luther, as he attacked the error of purgatory and indulgences.  But few know this fact.

Luther and the State of the Dead
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=236

All must understand that the many errors of the SDA’s do not nullify or remove the truths that they discovered.  In order for the Advent community to go forward, they must hold onto what is true and remove what is false.  

The Advent Movement is all about the end of the world; such an eschatological emphasis is correct and timely.  

They also predicted that at the end of time, the church would repent and understand the Gospel, just before the Great Time of Trouble.

Rev. 18:1  After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:4  I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

The Advent mission to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming is noble and heaven sent.  Too bad they failed so miserably to understand the Gospel and eschatology correctly.  Today they don’t even understand the Judgment or the Sabbath correctly, even though these are their most featured doctrines.  

Carlton said:  Forgive me for pointing out my view that there is no such thing as a silly question or discussion.  The sincere searcher after truth will have questions.  Those of us that have a desire to impart our understanding of scripture should encourage sincere enquiry regardless of how "silly" it might appear.

Tom said:  Like I said, there are many who are not sincere.  I have had discussions with those who are very dishonest about the basic facts of the Gospel Story.  They don’t ask honest questions, but rather, they are trying to defend false doctrine and attack the Gospel.  You are not in this category, so don’t worry.

Ask whatever you like about theology and church history.

Carlton said:  Might I also point out that if you disagree with me, or my understanding, I will not call you or your position names. I do welcome disagreement though - it forces me to revisit the scriptures.

Tom said:  Good to hear that you are an honest seeker for Gospel truth.  But don’t think for a moment that Jesus or the Apostles did not “call people names.”  This takes place whenever the genuine Gospel is preached or taught.  Why?  Because the Gospel attracts critics and enemies, and they need to be dealt with in a public manner, just as Jesus and Paul demonstrate in the NT.

Jesus used very harsh language against those, like the Pharisees, who refuted his Gospel.  (See Matt 23, etc).  

Jesus called the Jewish leaders many nasty names, in public, for all to hear, such as: hypocrites, fools, blind guides, brood of vipers, murderers, liars, etc.

Paul also branded the Judaizers with a very insulting name that featured only a small part of their false doctrine.  Thus he called them the “Circumcision Party.”  But this was not what they called themselves.  

Why?  

Because this was an insulting name, one that made reference to a painful and private religious practice, - one which was viewed with disdain and horror by the Gentiles.  It was a very derogatory and disrespectful name, and Paul knew this fact.  He was trying to discredit them because they were attacking his Gospel.


Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 5:2  Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.  

Paul was not content to just label this wayward church group as the “so called” Circumcision experts.  No, he also called them “dogs” and “evil workers” because they were promoting a false Gospel as well as a false, painful, and unnecessary, circumcision in order to be saved.

He also called them “rebellious, empty talkers, and deceivers.”

So much for thinking it wrong to call people names within the context of a Gospel discussion.  It is obviously not.  Neither Jesus nor Paul were making any errors by calling out their enemies with insults and fitting names.

The NT shows that “name calling” is not only practiced by Jesus and Paul, and the other apostles, but that it is necessary to identify the “empty talkers” and the enemies of the Gospel for all to see.

Eph. 2:11  Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands —
Phil. 3:2  Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Titus 1:10  For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,

Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Only those who dig in their heels and fight the Gospel get called bad names.  This is what Jesus and the NT teaches and this is what I try to follow.  However, I try to refrain from calling people “dogs” and “liars,” but it is clear that such names were used in defense of the Gospel.

But don’t worry.  You do not seem to be an enemy of the Gospel, but rather, a seeker for truth, even one under persecution by the SDA’s.  Ask any questions you want.  I doubt there will be any need to call you out for being dishonest with the Word.

Luke 11:9  “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Carlton said:  Finally, to be fair to you since I have your biography, I have been dis-fellowshipped from the SDA church for "not keeping my private views to myself".   I still attend the SDA church, in my view the closest to the truth of the Bible. Everything I believe is based solely on personal Bible study. I do not have any theological training.

Tom said:  I have theological training and many years of study into Adventism.  The SDA church does not allow free speech, nor do they want to hear any correction from anyone.  They have become great deceivers, enemies of Christ, full of arrogance, false doctrine, and legalism.  Yes.  They are even liars, teaching doctrines they know to be false.  (Note the harsh language, it is intentional, biblical, and appropriate.)

I am amazed you still go to an SDA church after they dis-fellowshiped you.  However, perhaps you can help them understand Gospel Reform?

Today, there are far more former SDA’s not in church, then there are members in North America.  So welcome to this large crowd of those who have been forced to leave Adventism because of so much error and corruption.  (Although you have not gone far).  

Even though my name is still on the church books, I refuse to attend an SDA church or support them in any way.  They have far too much false doctrine and corruption.  

I suggest you seriously consider Adventist Reform; it represents the correct path for the Adventism.

Adventist Reform Agenda
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

Carlton said:  I pray that God continues to bless your ministry as I feel that you are trying to effect a reformation in the hearts and minds of all believers.

Tom replied:  Thank you for your questions and your support.  The end of the world is closer than ever, and so too is our inevitable death.  Now is no time to ignore the Gospel or eschatology or to become confused about how to obtain Eternal Life.

It is time for the Advent Movement to go forward…

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Tom,

Thanks very much for your lucid and verbose response.  I appreciate and understand the appropriateness of calling people by their names following full discussion. I do note that Jesus' name calling occurred at the end of his ministry not at the beginning.

My main reason for responding though is, in response to the connection between Hosea 2:11 and Colossians 2:16 you said:

"Here is depicted the destruction of Judaism, and the end of Israel as a Nation.  So too the end of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses."

My follow up question is what Sabbath did Moses have?  The 7th Day weekly Sabbath was not attributed to him but to the ten commandments on stone.  Israel's sabbaths that were to be done away with (in terms of legal requirement to keep them) even though it is good to keep Israel's holidays in comparison to Pagan holidays.  So back to the point. You seem to suggest that there was a 7th Day Moses' sabbath that has done away with.  Could you help me to understand this point more.


Re my attendance at church every Sabbath, I feel it far better to attempt reform from within than from without.  I have been very tempted to set up on my own (there is no real alternative in the UK but there are a number of tiny sabbath keeping congregations growing up of ex SDAs.

Many thanks for the references to the problems of SDA membership. I want to attempt to show the leaders that while they ignore the exodus they jeopardise the future of the world church.  If they are interested in having a future they have to stop sweeping things under the carpet.  I am aware of many members that want to seriously address the issues.  They want to talk not be silenced.

One final thing.  You mentioned Doug Bachelor. Allow me to relate an interaction I had with him when he came to the UK.

Carlton to Doug: Are you aware that the Final Events DVD produced by Amazing Facts promotes the rapture?

Doug: Yes.

Carlton: Oh! So are you planning to change it for the next release?

Doug: We have no plans to update the FInal Events DVD... but it [the rapture scene] wasn't put in deliberately.

I was most disappointed.  He was fully aware that the members are distributing the final events DVD unaware that what they are inadvertently doing is promoting the rapture and was not prepared to let people know, revise the DVD, or remove the error from circulation.

Have a Happy Sabbath and great weekend.

Carlton

Answer
Carlton said:  Thanks very much for your lucid and verbose response.  I appreciate and understand the appropriateness of calling people by their names following full discussion. I do note that Jesus' name calling occurred at the end of his ministry not at the beginning.

Tom replied:  It is wrong to assume that Jesus only got tough on his critics at the end of his ministry.  It was really something that took place from the very beginning and all through his short ministry.

In fact, Mark 2 contains the first Sabbath debate, while Mark 3.5 shows Jesus getting angry with the unbelieving Jews very early on in his ministry.  And Mark 3.6 shows the Jews plotting to “destroy” Jesus and his Gospel.

Do not think for a moment that Jesus was free from the anger and hate of the Jews until the end of his ministry.  No.  No.  From the beginning of the Gospel, there were enemies that attacked it.

Moreover, the Sabbath debates started very early and so too the plots to “destroy Jesus.”  Thus the Jews became angry from the start, and Jesus also became “angry” and fought back from the start.  

So too, should those today who promote the genuine Gospel of Christ. They must also defend the Gospel with tough talk and passion against those who hate and distort the Gospel.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Mark 2:25 And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;

Mark 2:26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man nor the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Mark 3:1  He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.

Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Mark 3:3 He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”

Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Notice how Christ became “angry” with the whole crowd.  The Gospels record that Jesus “looked around at them with anger.”  What does this mean for us today?  It means we too should be angry with those, like Doug Batchelor, who fight against the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.  

We too should be angry in defense of the Gospel, pointing out in public the errors of those who are fighting against God and his Gospel.

This is no time for smooth words.  The world is close to Judgment, and close to the return of Christ.

It is time for the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, to go forward.

It is time for the Adventist Community to get “angry” at their religious leaders for teaching a false view of the Sabbath, and a worthless doctrine about the Gospel.  In fact, the SDA leaders have been deceiving everyone for years about Ellen White and church history.  Enough is enough.  For all those who seek truth, and want Eternal Life, it is enough.  The SDA leaders are to be repudiated and condemned, just like Jesus and Paul demonstrate in the NT.  They are enemies of Christ, just like the Jews they emulate.

Carlton said:  My main reason for responding though is, in response to the connection between Hosea 2:11 and Colossians 2:16 you said:

"Here is depicted the destruction of Judaism, and the end of Israel as a Nation.  So too the end of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses."

My follow up question is what Sabbath did Moses have?  The 7th Day weekly Sabbath was not attributed to him but to the ten commandments on stone.  Israel's sabbaths that were to be done away with (in terms of legal requirement to keep them) even though it is good to keep Israel's holidays in comparison to Pagan holidays.  

So back to the point. You seem to suggest that there was a 7th Day Moses' sabbath that has done away with.  Could you help me to understand this point more.

Tom said:  The Old Covenant Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, which is also referred to part of the Law of Moses, was CHANGED by Christ into a new and active 7th day Sabbath.  While the 7th day was holy in the OC, with a forced rest, not so in the NC.  

All will have to study the teachings of Christ to understand his view of the Sabbath.  What the SDA’s have been teaching, is not fully correct.  They do have the right day, but not the correct doctrine.  Let all condemn what the SDA’s teach about the Sabbath (and many other things).  They are dead wrong, just like the Jews they emulate.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

The Jews hated Jesus for making such a change to the Sabbath law and to the Priesthood, and thus they rejected not only the reformed Gospel Sabbath, but the entire Gospel as well.

If you study the Gospels without the many myths of the SDA’s, it will become apparent what Jesus is doing with the Sabbath.  He is not changing it to Sunday, or in any way promoting what the SDA’s teach.  (They have embraced the Sabbath of the Jews and the Old Covenant, not the NC Sabbath of Christ, for which they must repent.)

Nor does Christ promote this utter nonsense called NCT (New Covenant Theology), which teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and thus abolished the weekly day of worship, changing it into an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest.  Of course this myth is promoted by those who meet every Sunday.  Which underscores the hypocrisy of this anti-Sabbatarian crowed, who is so passionate for false doctrine.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Carlton said:  Re my attendance at church every Sabbath; I feel it far better to attempt reform from within than from without.  

Tom said:  I felt the same way at one time and worked from within the SDA church for many years.  But this can only go so far, because if you really promote the Gospel, you will be asked to leave.  And many have done just that.

Moreover, those who promote Gospel Reform in the SDA church have no legal standing to do so any more than did Paul, who was thrown out of the synagogue for his Gospel views.

Paul then set up a Gospel venue, right next door to the synagogue so that he could continue to promote his correct views.  Of course the Jews caused trouble and chased Paul out of town, but even so, the Gospel precedent has been set for our edification.  The Gospel is not to be stopped because of those who repudiate it.  It must still be preached.

The SDA’s are great at persecuting their critics and sending away those who try to bring them the Gospel.  (Dr. Ford is a good example.)  Do not be fooled by the SDA’s.  They can be as mean and nasty as the Jews.  

Why?  Because like the Jews, they also hate the Gospel.  Those who understand and embrace the Gospel are not to be controlled or silenced by those who don’t.  

Carlton said:  I have been very tempted to set up on my own (there is no real alternative in the UK but there are a number of tiny sabbath keeping congregations growing up of ex SDAs.

Tom said:  Go for it!  The Gospel is not to be stopped by the SDA’s.  Go forward and promote New Covenant Adventism.  

Adventist Reform is the proper path for the honest at heart within the SDA Community

Adventist Reform - Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

Carlton said:  Many thanks for the references to the problems of SDA membership. I want to attempt to show the leaders that while they ignore the exodus they jeopardize the future of the world church.  

Tom said:  Ha!  Don’t not be fooled by the Gospel hating SDA’s.  They have rejected the Gospel with both hands, and they have no plans to repent.  They are corrupt and full of double-talk.  

So I think you are wasting your time trying to educate the SDA leaders about anything, much less the Gospel.  They don’t want to hear any criticism of their many false doctrines, nor will they tolerate any such instruction any more than did the Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, 1st century Jews.

Glacier View was a great opportunity for the SDA’s to remove their many myths and false doctrines.  Here was a time when the top scholars of the church argued for truth and honesty in both doctrine and church history.  But the leaders voted for myth and error.  Then they exiled Dr. Ford and wrote a false creed called the 27 Fundamentals.

Nothing has changed since 1980.  The SDA leaders have no intention of repenting for what they did at Glacier View.  Thus they stand guilty and condemned, blind to the Gospel and self-destructing for all to see.

Carlton said:  If they are interested in having a future they have to stop sweeping things under the carpet.  I am aware of many members that want to seriously address the issues.  They want to talk not be silenced.

Tom replied:  Millions have left the SDA’s after Glacier View.  Most all are tired of the endless double-talk, corruption, and error.  This is why the church cannot grow in North America or Europe.  It only grows in third world countries, where people do not have the knowledge or education to know what they are doing.  So the SDA’s prey on those who don’t know any better, selling damaged goods that have been rejected in America and Europe.

I live close to the SDA headquarters.  I have met with the leaders over the years.  It is a waste of time.  They don’t understand the Gospel, nor do they want to try.  They are just like the 1st century Jews.

Carlton said:  One final thing.  You mentioned Doug Bachelor. Allow me to relate an interaction I had with him when he came to the UK.

Tom replied:  Doug Bachelor is a Gospel hating Jew.  So too Clifford Goldstein.  Both men are great legalists, enemies of Christ who pretend they support him.

No one should be fooled by these confused, self-serving agents of deception, they are paid by the church to teach false doctrine.  

I have had many interactions with Goldstein, who is a very dishonest man.  He has refused to have a public discussion about the issues with Tom Norris, and so too the creepy Doug Batchelor.  These men are great double-talkers and full of false doctrine, let all beware.

Carlton said:  I was most disappointed.  He was fully aware that the members are distributing the final events DVD unaware that what they are inadvertently doing is promoting the rapture and was not prepared to let people know, revise the DVD, or remove the error from circulation.

Tom said:  Those who hate the Gospel will always disappoint those who do.  Amazing Facts should be called “Amazing Errors & Myths.  There is almost no truth to anything that the SDA’s are saying today.  And Amazing Facts is the worst of the worst.  All those who embrace the genuine Gospel must repudiate and condemn such error.

In conclusion, it is time for all in the SDA Community to wake up and understand that Adventism has gone very bad and corrupt.  

It is time for a new Adventist Movement that understands and embraces the genuine Gospel, which includes the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism

Seventh-Day Adventists

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Tom Norris

Expertise

I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.

Experience

Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform. http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

Education/Credentials
Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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