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Seventh-Day Adventists/Adventism's errors vs. Baptist's errors - pt. 2

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Hi Patricia,
James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

Thank you for your response but it fails to settle the matter rationally. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You are contradictory and come across as confused.

You said...
"I am capable of chewing the meat and spitting out the bones..."

The Bible says...
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

You're not smarter than the Devil. None of us are.


Adventistm's doctrines are so dangerous or as you say "too much error regarding salvation is taught" - that you had to leave. But yet you embrace "once saved always saved"??? This is one of the most dangerous teachings there is. It tells a person that no matter what kind of life he/she lives he/she is still going to heaven.

As for all the Bible texts you provided to prove your point about once saved always saved - you have taken them all out of context. Yes, I believe that we can have assurance of salvation - that Christ has redeemed us but we can choose to forfeit that free gift.

If a person cannot lose their salvation why does the Bible say this:
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It's pretty plain.


The messages to the seven churches destroys "once saved always saved".

EPHESUS (Revelation 2)
This is the apostolic church.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Notice that to lose your first love (vs. 4) means to have fallen (vs. 5). And it says that these people made the choice to do so.

And vs. 7 gives the promise "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Only if one "overcomes" can we eat of the tree of life. In other words if you don't overcome - you won't.


SMYRNA (Revelation 2)
This is the persecuted church. Jesus has nothing bad to say about them.
Verse 10 says "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." And verse 11 says "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

In other words if you are not faithful unto death you won't get a crown of life and if you don't overcome you will suffer the second death.


PERGAMOS (Revelation 2)
The period of Constantine when he allowed paganism to come into the church. This set the stage for the next church.

Verse 17 has the promise "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Again, in other words if you don't overcome you won't receive the things listed.

If you read the Greek in all of these passages using the phrase about overcoming - it reads "he that continues to overcome" - it's active - action is being taken.


THYATIRA (Revelation 2)
This is the period of the Dark Ages when the Papal church is ruling.
Why would Jesus say to the church "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations." (vs. 26) if there was no way anyone could lose their salvation - it just doesn't even make sense. You're making Jesus sound like he has no sense in his words. The verse implies that if you don't overcome and keep Jesus' works UNTIL THE END - you'll be lost. Why would Jesus say such a thing if they were already locked into heaven and couldn't be lost?


SARDIS (Revelation 3)
This is the Protestant Reformation - particularly the latter stages when they were dying and regressing in their protesting.

Read verses 1-3 - Jesus is saying these people in the church were his people but something happened - their works were not perfect before God. And he tells them to "remember" how their experience was and then he says "repent". These people were already Christians and something went wrong in their experience.
Why aren't they "once saved always saved"?
Jesus says to them (at the end of vs. 3) "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."
Clearly they will be lost if they don't rededicate their lives and repent.

Now notice verse 5...
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Again the idea that you must continue to overcome to be saved. When does God record your name in the book of life? It's when you accept Jesus. Clearly it says here that God can remove people who had previously accepted Jesus. And don't say they really didn't accept him because God would know that and not even write their name in the book.


PHILADELPHIA (Revelation 3)
This is the Millerite movement period. Jesus has nothing bad to say about this church.
"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." (vs.11)

How can anyone take someone's crown (which represents eternal life) if you can't lose it in the first place?

And vs. 12 gives the promise of overcoming - implying that if you don't overcome you will be lost.


LAODICEA (Revelation 3)
This is the Adventist church. Jesus has nothing good to say about this church.
Jesus tells them to repent. Obviously they had accepted Christ to be called one of his churches. But he's warning them to repent. If people are sealed - no matter what, why the need for warning to repent?

And then the promise is given in vs. 21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne..."

If you continue to overcome THEN Jesus will grant you to sit with him on his throne.


Patricia - this is a deadly doctrine to think that you cannot lose your salvation. God gives us free choice. He doesn't take it away the moment we accept Jesus into our hearts.
This is a salvational matter to believe this lie.

And the Rapture - that's not dangerous and salvational?
Believing that if you don't make it you have a second chance?

This doctrine destroys the love and fairness of God.
People who are living at the time of the Rapture, if they don't make it, they get a second chance to get into heaven. But yet those persons who died in a lost condition before the Rapture don't. How does this make God fair?????

You can see the Secret Rapture in the Bible Patricia? I would love for you to show it to me because I could never find it.

I hope you will consider what has been presented and study these matter more. Baptists, while many are good loving Christians, are in grave error that will be detrimental to their salvation. There's more to the gospel than just saying "I love Jesus." We have to know what Jesus taught as this defines the Jesus we serve.

As for the Adventist church not giving people "freedom" to believe what they want - they do. But like any church, you have a set of doctrines. If someone comes along and teaches contrary the church should get involved and try to rectify the matter either by talking with the person and if they don't come to see things as the church believes that person should NOT be allowed to preach contrary beliefs in an open forum in the church.

If you think your Baptist church has this "freedom" you are mistaken. Just start preaching something like an IJ, the state of the dead, unclean foods, etc... and see what happens. Whether you want to see these things as true or not is not my point - the point is the Baptist church should give a person the freedom - unrestricted (as you are stating) to believe these things and preach them without interference from the church.

May God Bless you and your family,
David

Answer
David,

Thank you for your response.

You said that I am speaking out of both sides of my mouth, contradicting myself and sounding confused. When I said I was capable of chewing the meat and spitting out the bones, you gave me the following Scripture and comment:

"The Bible says...
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

You're not smarter than the Devil. None of us are." (end of your quote)

My response:

Perhaps you have selectively forgotten that I qualified my statements by saying that as a BELIEVER, I am free to be led by the Spirit. The Spirit is the One who gives me discernment, wisdom and understanding. You are 100% accurate. I am not smarter than the devil BUT the Spirit in Whom I depend is smarter than the devil.

You said:

As for all the Bible texts you provided to prove your point about once saved always saved - you have taken them all out of context. Yes, I believe that we can have assurance of salvation - that Christ has redeemed us but we can choose to forfeit that free gift.

If a person cannot lose their salvation why does the Bible say this:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

My response:

A 'person' (your word) and a 'believer' are two different people as I hope you will see in the proof text that you provided attempting to prove that a believer can be lost. I submit that Hebrews 6 is not addressing a believer that has lost his salvation.

Hebrews 6:4 says that it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

All persons or people are enlightened to some degree (via nature, their conscious, their Bible, etc.) and have some knowledge of and have even tasted the goodness of God. God has a tendency to shower blessings on the sinner and the saint. However, as little or as much enlightenment a person is given about God, if he chooses not to build on it or believe it, he is an enlightened uncommitted unbeliever. Let's look at the definition of enlighten so we can be on the same page (hopefully).

Enlighten : to give intellectual or spiritual light to; instruct; impart knowledge to: We hope the results of our research will enlighten our colleagues.

The verse is speaking of those who were enlightened by a knowledge of God but not in a personal relationship with Him. They refused to believe the Good News of the Gospel. They are 'persons'(unbelievers) and not born again believers so it should not surprise you that they chose another path. That's why unbelievers in the 7 churches are called to repent. Attending and being part of a church does not translate into being a believer.

The born again believer continues to grow spiritually, has his defeats and triumphs but continues to be strong in faith by the indwelling and empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The believer is the one that God will not allow anyone to snatch from His hand. The unbeliever might call himself a Christian but it's in name only. The unbeliever might even have the so-called right look and speak religious jargon. The unbeliever might have a knowledge of God, enjoy His blessings, taste His goodness but never wholeheartedly believe and commit to God. The unbeliever tastes with his tongue but he doesn't have the faith or courage to actually swallow it (the Gospel). He chooses to spit it out. He will eventually walk away and end up worst than he was before. Hebrews is referring to nominal, in name only, Christians. So, in essence, I totally disagree with your commentary and interesting interpretations.

What makes you believe that Baptists or any other group of people who believe and love the Lord feel that all they need to do is say, "I love You Lord" and live life as usual? That's a BIG FAT LIE that comes straight from the devil. This lie makes legalists feel proud and good about themselves because they are working hard for their salvation while those under the umbrella of grace (according to the legalist) get a free ride without changing anything. Utter stupidity in my opinion!

You have given me a lot of commentary on overcoming and even said, "Only if one "overcomes" can we eat of the tree of life. In other words if "you" don't overcome - you won't."

You also wrote: Now notice verse 5...
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

"Again the idea that you must continue to overcome to be saved. When does God record your name in the book of life? It's when you accept Jesus. Clearly it says here that God can remove people who had previously accepted Jesus. And don't say they really didn't accept him because God would know that and not even write their name in the book." (end of your quote)

First, I would like to say that there's a big difference in what "you" can do and what God can do through you. Do you not know the GOOD News? Jesus overcame for us! When the Bible speaks of "He that overcometh" it is speaking of those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, have repented of their sins, are born again and are walking with Him in the newness of life. Only then is it safe to put them in the Book of Life because God knows He will never blot those who believe in Him out of the Book of Life. I disagree with your interpretation. God doesn't need an eraser and He means what He says when He says 'I will not blot them out!" So if a name is written in the Book of Life because he believes and accepts God's blood atonement and when God promises to not blot that believer's name out, what does that say to you? Is there a possibility of that person being lost when his name is still in the Book of Life? In your dialogue you kept talking about what doesn't make sense, well does it make sense for a person in the Book of Life to be lost? John quotes Jesus.....

John 16:33 (NIV)
33  "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace . In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world. "

Believers have the victory even though we continue to press onward and upward fueled by His grace, His Spirit and everlasting love for us. Satan knows he has already lost just like believers know they are already saved. With this knowledge, Satan fights all the harder and the saints trust more and more in God.

SDAs believe that they have a work that they must do to be saved and that "they" must overcome when the Bible plainly states....

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God :
9  Not of works , lest any man should boast.

The following verse tells us the work that God wants us involved in:

John 6:29 (KJV)
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent .

Jesus has already overcome for us and when we believe, repent and are born again we partake of His righteousness and He no longer sees our filthy rags. There is a huge difference between works FOR salvation and works FROM salvation.

You said that we must continue to actively overcome. My question would be, are you of yourself overcoming or is it a result of Christ in you? Believers don't remain stagnant. Believers continue to grow, mature, make mistakes, confess and press on. SDAs believe that they have to be the overcomer and they have to be perfect (even sinless) in order to be saved . They even believe that during the Time of Trouble they will have to stand before God without a Mediator. People can only be overcomers when they believe, repent and accept Christ as their Righteousness and Overcomer. With that, Jesus promises to never leave them nor forsake them. Because of His blood transaction on the Cross, legally (in His sight) believers are already overcomers and already saved as they press on to be more and more like Him daily. Just like satan is already defeated but his day of reckoning hasn't come as yet; so the same is true of the believer. The believer is already saved but waiting for His return to take us home.

1 John 5:4-5 (NIV)

4  for everyone born of God overcomes the world . This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith .
5  Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God .    

Again, it's not a "work" that we can do in and of ourselves to be accepted by Him. God writes the believer's name in the Book of Life because the believer has accepted His gift of salvation and has been declared an overcomer because the believer claims the blood of Jesus.

Revelation 12:11 (KJV)
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb , and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.     

I will make no further comment on the Rapture because as I stated previously , I have not done due diligence in studying it out.

To close, you said:

"Patricia - this is a deadly doctrine to think that you cannot lose your salvation. God gives us free choice. He doesn't take it away the moment we accept Jesus into our hearts.
This is a salvational matter to believe this lie." (end of your quote)

My response:

I totally agree with you that God doesn't take away our freedom of choice once we accept Jesus into our hearts BUT what He does do, since His Spirit indwells us, He will gently woo and seek to direct us into God approved choices. His Spirit and my spirit become one as He leads and guides me. As I continue to mature and grow, my choices begin to automatically become more God approved and aligned with His will and His ways become what I desire to choose . My choice!

You probably won't agree with much or anything that I have shared with you but nonetheless, this is what I believe. May God continue to bless and keep you always.

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Patricia Allen

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As a former Seventh-day Adventist (SDA), I have insight of value to those who are questioning and/or trying to decide if they should leave or become an SDA. It would be my privilege to discuss SDA church doctrine, structure, Ellen White, the old and new covenants, and their various beliefs. The Bible will be my main source of reference and all quotes, etc. will be documented. I understand that there are different variants of Adventists, but I am only familiar with what I would call traditional or main stream.

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I was a Seventh-day Adventist for over 50 years. I attended their schools and I was always active in the churches I attended. I also worked for the denomination for 37 years. Since I was educated in their schools from Grade 1, and because what I was taught came from the Bible, I never questioned my beliefs. I considered myself as one whom the Lord had chosen to bring out of darkness into His marvelous light. In the year 2005, I became keenly aware that Ellen White contradicted the Scriptures numerous times and plagiarized some of her most popular writings. At this point, I had to seriously consider studying for myself with the aid of the Holy Spirit to see if indeed I really had the truth. Sad to say, I discovered that I was deluded and deliberately deceived by the church I loved and served. In 2010, I requested that my name be withdrawn from the membership roster of the church. Since then, it has been my passion to tell those in the SDA church and those considering joining Adventism, the truth and freedom that I have discovered and enjoy daily. I interact on Facebook with SDAs frequently regarding their beliefs and doctrines compared to the Bible. In addition to answering questions on this site, I have a blog (www.patricia-allen.blogspot.com) and the purpose of my articles is to expose the false doctrines of the SDA church After 50 plus years of trying to 'work' my way, I have discovered the sweet rest in the finished work of my Savior. I've also discovered that there is nothing that I have ever done to make Jesus love me less and there is nothing that I can ever do to make Jesus love me more. Jesus just loves me and this I know!

Education/Credentials
M.A.O.M. degree (Master of Arts in Organizational Management). I also have a B.A.I.C. degree (Born Again in Christ). My calling is to help spread the Good News of the Gospel and to help lift the veil by sharing Jesus, Who is the Truth and the Light.

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