Seventh-Day Adventists/Adventist's errors vs. Baptist's errors - pt 3 (conclusion)
Thank you for your reply. I started a new thread as it get too long for one. This will be my thread on this subject of once saved always saved.
It is presumption to think that you can venture on the Devil's ground in thinking that the Spirit will give you discernment in false principles that might come your way. Yes, the Spirit can and will give us discernment but not when we willingly go to a church that preaches falsehood - like the Rapture and once save/always saved.
I see you did not address other verses I provided:
1. The church of Philadelphia - it says it's possible for some to take your crown.
2. The church of Sardis - mentions God blotting out your name from the book of life f you do not overcome. Your name is only recorded in the book of life if you accept Christ but yet God says it can be removed.
Your response to Hebrews was complete rationalizing - something we humans are masters at. Verse 4 says plainly that they "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" This is not the Holy Spirit just impressing the mind as the Spirit will do with non-believers. This is the imparting of the Holy Spirit in a life that has accepted Christ. The Holy Ghost is given only to those that obey him.
Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
The persons mentioned in Heb. 6 ARE persons who have the Holy Spirit - people that are obeying God - Christians. Then it says in verse 6 "If they shall fall away" - what is hard to understand here? You are not reading the text openly and fully.
Another chapter to read is 2 Peter 2 - it describes a person (vs. 15) who has forsaken the right way and gone astray. It speaks of Balaam - who was once a true prophet of God but he fell away - didn't he?
Here is the summary of the chapter:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Clearly this is describing someone who was a Christian and has turned away and is lost.
Salvation is conditional even after we accept Christ and have assurance.
Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security.
"If we walk in the light...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.
"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.
"If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.
"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.
"If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.
"If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.
"For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.
"If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).
"If we sin willfully...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.
"If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.
"Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.
"If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.
There are alot of "if" verses about salvation.
In the eleventh chapter of Romans, Paul is discussing the fact that many of the physical seed of Israel rejected God's Son and were thus cut off. The illustration is used of an olive tree. The branches were the children of Israel, but because of their unbelief, they were broken off, as you will read in verses 17 to 20. Then, some wild olive branches were grafted in, which represents the Gentile Christians. Now note this admonition: "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." Verses 21 and 22, emphasis added. Please note that any security for those branches depended entirely upon their connection with the tree. The security was conditional.
Peter agrees with these sentiments of Paul. In 2 Peter 1 are listed a number of virtues which should be manifested in the life of every Christian. These are mentioned in verses 5 through 7, and notice that he is writing to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." (vs.1). Then they had been given "all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue." (vs. 3).
It is very clear that Peter is addressing these remarks to those who have been converted. But notice the warning he gives:
"But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." (vs. 9, 10).
Surely this indicates that Christians can fall from grace. They can turn back from following Jesus.
1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."
To depart from the faith means you had to be IN the faith. It is possible to leave the faith.
Was King Saul a man of God? Of course he was.
1 Samuel 10:6 "And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be TURNED INTO ANOTHER MAN."
He became a "new creature" - converted.
But did King Saul backslide? Of course he did. He was a man of God and turned from God, took his own life and was lost.
Please don't misunderstand me - we can have unconditional security. It is in Christ, on a day-by-day, moment-by-moment basis. When you take Christ and stay by, you will persevere. There is and can be no failure on Christ's part. He will not fail; He is faithful.
"Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee." Psalm 55:22. Jesus will stand by us as long as we stand by Him. Jesus said of Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." John 14:6.
As you can see it is clear that a fully converted and committed Christian can choose to turn away from the Lord and be lost. The Lord is not the problem - the person who decides to do this is.
Thank you for your response.
I am truly sorry but my time is valuable. I do not have the time to have a continous controversy with you over Scripture when it is obvious to me that your objective is to convince me how deluded I am and how the Holy Spirit will not give me discernment because I willfully worship in what the SDA church considers one of the harlots of Babylon.
You said the Holy Spirit is only given to those that obey Him. Did you mean to say that? So you believe that an unbeliever can come to Christ, obey Christ on his own and then receive the Holy Spirit? How can a disobedient unbeliever come to Christ without the Spirit's initiative and leading? I sincerely believe that the power and role of the Holy Spirit is down played among a lot of SDA'S. For instance, one SDA pastor's wife made the statement that the Bible has to be studied alongside Ellen G. White's writings because the Holy Spirit can lead a person astray. Really?
You also said the Holy Spirit will not give discernment to a person who willingly goes to a church that teaches falsehood. Doesn't the SDA church teach that Sabbath observance is the seal of God and that the Sabbath (that was given to the Jews ONLY) must be kept in order to receive salvation? The Bible contradicts that teaching by plainly stating that the Holy Spirit is the seal, deposit and guarantee? So, my follow up question for you to ponder is, "Can the Holy Spirit give discernment to SDA'S that believe the false teaching that the 7th day Sabbath is the seal of God?"
According to you, I rationalize a lot. I will unequivocally say the same for you. All this extra commentary you shared about the 7 churches came from where? Certainly not the Bible. Where does the Bible say the Seventh-day Adventist church is Laodecia? That can also be labelled as a false teaching.
You claim that salvation is conditional even after we have assurance. You also claim that we can have unconditional assurance as long as we stay with Christ on a daily and moment by moment basis. So how can one be sure and assured of something if it is subject to change any moment? How can unconditional simultaneously be conditional moment by moment? Explain to me how it is possible for me to experience peace (a fruit of the Spirit) when I am fearful that my unconditional assurance of salvation really doesn't assure me that I won't be lost. God is a peace giver. He says, "....My peace I give to you....let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
Through personal observations, I have noticed that one of the main outward indicatives and differences I see between other Christians and SDA'S is the joy. SDA'S as a whole are not a joyful people because they don't know if they are saved, therefore, they cannot be truly happy and embrace it. One SDA member in her 90's was about to die and said she HOPES she will be saved. Decades in the church and she died without assurance. How sad!
My prayer is that SDA'S would be more open minded. They believe they are the only ones with "the truth" and no one can teach them anything. Instead of listening and trying to see where others are coming from (even when it is pointed out in the Bible), they are busy looking for bones of contention to argue, defend and divide. I don't know of any other church that argue their beliefs so much and stoop to name calling when people disagree with them and it's ALWAYS (well maybe 98%) about the Sabbath. I have concluded that the church made a mistake by naming it 7th day Adventists because their main doctrine is in its name. I believe they feel they are under personal attack when people disagree with them about the Sabbath and it makes them feel compelled to defend their name and honor. I could be wrong but I tend to think it anyway.
My objective on this site is to address sincere seekers and answer their questions as best I can. It is not my intent to try to convince you or anyone about anything. I say what I feel impressed to say and prayerfully the answer serves as a launching pad for them to do more study and research in order to arrive at their own conclusion. My utmost goal is to love people and treat them with respect regardless of our differences.
Let's peacefully conclude that you are a die hard Seventh-day Adventist and I am a die hard Former Seventh-day Adventist and Christ Follower. You have stated your beliefs, I have stated mine, we don't agree. There comes a time when I have to realize that it's time for me to move on. That time has come. I will not continue because I am not trying to prove or convince you of anything. All I can do is plant a seed and pray that it falls on fertile ground.
I will keep you in my prayers and I hope you will do the same for me. Peace!