Seventh-Day Adventists/Kellogg and EGW

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Dear Tom,
I am so glad I found you. I am a practicing SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation. In the past 2 yrs I have been questioning the doctrines of my faith and EGW. As you know that is a no no in the SDA church. It means I am being lead by a demon spirit, I am being shaken out all of which EGW claimed would happen. So I have been researching and its been painful to say the least. But the internet can go either direction you can find anything to confirm your beliefs or confirm that what you have believed has been false. And of course I have a guilt complex for even searching. Am I doing what the Jews did to their prophets by questioning EGW and will I be left out of heaven? All that guilt which just being SDA puts on us all!
I have heard that John Harvey Kellogg was a Pantheist and he was condemned by EGW. And to this day that is the belief that conservative SDA hold. I have wanted to read his book but I have not. No one has read his book the Living Temple but believe that EGW was right. Same with Desmond Ford who my dad struggled with his take on the Sanctuary which is biblical and my dad believed Desmond Ford to be correct from his own study of the bible yet in spite of that my dad believed the SOP over the bible and he died have a very difficult time with EGW and the bible he could not reconcile many things.But he could not give up his faith. This is where I am today. I am searching for truth. Kellogg is a question that I have for you was he a pantheist? And today we as SDA are looking for a Sunday law. What is your take on that and will there be one are we looking for something that will never take place? Is the Mark of the Beast Sunday? What is the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 speaks of and Jesus as well in Matt. 24. It is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus and SDA understand it to be the Sunday. Is Sunday a test for endtime Christians?
I have so many questions but this is enough for now.
Blessings,
Kelley McElroy

Answer
Kelley said:  I am so glad I found you. I am a practicing SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation. In the past 2 yrs I have been questioning the doctrines of my faith and EGW.

Tom said:  Today, legions of SDA’s no longer trust Ellen White or Adventist theology.  Consequently, millions have left the church since Glacier View in 1980, and more leave all the time.  The Advent Movement is dying for all to see.  Unless something is honestly done to address this ongoing crisis, Adventism will collapse.  And the end of the world will have nothing to do with it.

Ellen White: by Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

Kelley said:  As you know, questioning is a “no no” in the SDA church. It means I am being led by a demon spirit, I am being shaken out, - all of which EGW claimed would happen.

Tom said:  Ellen White would be the first to urge everyone to question and study the issues for themselves.  She would never want anyone to blindly embrace any doctrine, much less because this is what the leaders promote.  

Moreover, Ellen White never claimed to have biblical authority, as the church teaches today, much less to have all the answers and become part of a Creed.  While that is what the White Estate teaches, they have been very dishonest and manipulative about Ellen White’s Story.  So much so, that the real Ellen White of history has yet to emerge.  What all have been taught is full of myth, fiction, and fraud.  

Let everyone understand: the White Estate is guilty of a massive publishing fraud.  One that is still ongoing today.

Kelley said:  So I have been researching and it’s been painful to say the least. But the Internet can go either direction you can find anything to confirm your beliefs or confirm that what you have believed has been false. And of course I have a guilt complex for even searching.

Tom said:  Today, there is a war taking place on the Internet over Ellen White.  First, it was the critics that set up one website after another to prove Ellen White and her views wrong.  After a number of years of such bashing, the SDA leaders launched a counter offensive, which includes scores of stealth websites that defend Ellen White, showing her to be credible and true.  What a mess!

If one did not know better, it would appear from the Internet that millions support and defend Ellen White, even as millions despise and hate her.  But only the latter is true.  Adventism is decimated today because so few believe in her.  She has become a pariah for the fractured and self-destructing SDA’s.  Her reputation has been ruined, and so too the entire Advent Movement, but yet, the White Estate pretends all is correct and well, when everyone knows otherwise.

The Adventist Community must understand that propaganda is not the same as facts.  Regardless of how many millions are spent on the endless promotion of Ellen White’s books, and in the defense of Ellen White’s official story, she has lost the public debate.  The apologists are wasting their time, and ours, trying to pretend there are no serious problems with Ellen White and church history.  

Something is very wrong in the White Estate and there is no use in denying what is so obvious.

The Truth About Ellen White: by Tom Norris, Jan 24, 2015
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=12191#p12191

Kelley asked:  Am I doing what the Jews did to their prophets by questioning EGW and will I be left out of heaven? All that guilt which just being SDA puts on us all!

Tom said: First off, Ellen White was never a “prophet” as the Takoma Park apologists taught us all to believe.  That myth was promoted by the Takoma Park apologists, becoming official church doctrine after Glacier View.

Is Ellen White A False Prophet?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2014/10/ellen-white-false

Second, the real Ellen White spoke truth to power and defied the church leaders.  She compared the SDA’s to the unbelieving Jews, both before and after 1888.  In fact, she specifically condemned Uriah Smith for being like the Gospel hating Jews, but the Takoma Park apologists suppressed this history.  The White Estate has manipulated Ellen White’s condemnation of the leaders, spinning it around to make the members feel guilty and wrong.  

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

If Ellen White were alive today, she would condemn, not the confused members that have been deceived about church history, but the corrupt and dishonest leaders for misrepresenting her views.  She would denounce the White Estate in the most vivid terms for suppressing her documents and her true views, demanding that the record be corrected immediately.  

Third.  Ellen White urged all to press forward in the investigation of the scriptures, certain that more truth, from the Bible, was ahead for SDA’s.

“There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. "

“Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42

"When God's Word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony.  Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.  Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline."    The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1885.

Kelley said: I have heard that John Harvey Kellogg was a Pantheist and he was condemned by EGW. And to this day that is the belief that conservative SDA’s hold. I have wanted to read his book but I have not. No one has read his book the Living Temple but believe that EGW was right.  Kellogg is a question that I have for you was he a pantheist?

Tom replied:  The White Estate has not been honest about church history.  They have not told the truth about many leading characters in Battle Creek, such as Uriah Smith, Canright, Waggoner and Jones, Kellogg, and especially James and Ellen White.  This is the real cause for the demise of modern Adventism, - the fraud in the White Estate.

JHK was a Pluralist, NOT a Pantheist.  His real problem with Ellen White was the fact that he cared nothing for Adventist eschatology.  In the aftermath and vacuum of the 1888 debacle, JHK tried to rebrand Adventism into a social model, where health and humanitarian activities took center stage.  This infuriated Ellen White, who had given her life promoting an apocalyptic version of Adventism that featured the 2nd Coming.

See:

J H Kellogg, Living Temple, & the Omega; by Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=229

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Theological_views

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Temple-John-Harvey-Kellogg/dp/1104498014

https://archive.org/details/J.H.Kellogg.TheLivingTemple1903

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=WV&pagenumber=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism

Kelley said:  Same with Desmond Ford who my dad struggled with his take on the Sanctuary, which is biblical, and my dad believed Desmond Ford to be correct from his own study of the bible; yet in spite of that my dad believed the SOP over the bible and he died have a very difficult time with EGW and the bible he could not reconcile many things.  But he could not give up his faith.

Tom replied: Glacier View was a disgrace. Dr. Ford was treated very badly by the church leaders.  Contrary to slander, Ford also thought very highly of Ellen White, believing she was an honest and spiritually gifted Christian.  Dr. Ford was not fooled by the White Estates manipulated story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford
https://www.facebook.com/drdesford

Moreover, Dr. Ford was correct about the IJ as well as the definition of the Gospel and church history.  It was the leaders that were confused and very wrong.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/atodayinterview/intro.cfm

Everyone needs to understand that Ellen White’s view about the IJ was not, and is not today, being honestly or accurately reported by the church.  

Dr. Ford was 100% correct to refute this giant myth that claimed the IJ was a fundamental pillar from the 1st Angels Message, thus making it a permanent doctrine.  This was never true.  The IJ was never part of Rev 14: 7; never a “pillar” in the 1st Angels Message, and Ellen White never said otherwise.  

The only “Judgment pillar” in the entire Three Angels Message is Rev 14: 7, which is only about the 2nd Coming.  Ellen White, as well as Uriah Smith, Andrews, and all the Pioneers, agree, agree, agree, with Dr. Ford on this critical eschatological point, which overthrows Traditional, Takoma Park, Adventism.

See:

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Kelley said:  This is where I am today. I am searching for truth.

Tom said:  Those that confess their confusion, honestly seeking Gospel truth, will find it.  However, those that defend their traditions and errors, like the Jews, seeing only what they want to see, are blind to truth, unable to comprehend the Gospel.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Kelley asked:  Today, we as SDA’s are looking for a Sunday law. What is your take on that and will there be one are we looking for something that will never take place? Is the Mark of the Beast Sunday?

Tom said:  First, no one should expect 19th century eschatology to perform flawlessly in the 21st century.  That is a ludicrous proposition.  

Adventist eschatology, in real time, was full of many flaws and errors, which is why it went through so many changes. (1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Angels Messages)

If it didn’t work in the 19th or 20th centuries, why would it function now in our advanced 21st century age?  It will not work.  Look around; it is not working.  Adventist eschatology, which includes the great error about the IJ, is absurd and legalistic, as well as unbiblical and against the Gospel and the fundamentals of the Advent Movement.

The word eschatology means last thing.  And for us today, that relates to the 21st century, not to the 19th.  Most of what was taught in Battle Creek and Takoma Park was not only wrong, it is long outdated today.

However, not everything is wrong about Adventist eschatology.  They did invent the basic eschatological platform about the 2nd Coming that every denomination has since embraced.  So we are not saying Adventism has no value.  It does.

The Adventists invented modern eschatology.  As part of this process, they also discovered the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14, and a Fourth and final Advent Message in Rev 18.   Thus the SDA’s focused on how to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming and the inevitable, end of the world.  What could be more timely and necessary?

Considering that the Adventists discovered modern eschatology, it should not be surprising that some points of Adventist eschatology are still valid today, even critical to our future understanding of last day events.  But instead of updating an outdated view of eschatology, and searching for more truth, the SDA leaders deny free speech and censor the critics, like Dr. Ford, who understands Gospel truth for the 21st century.

It is time for 21st century eschatology; time for the Advent Movement to wake up and start searching for more truth.  The defense of error must stop.

Sunday Laws: Mark of the Beast:

The 19th century SDA’s were obsessed about the 7th day Sabbath.  As part of their Protestant eschatology; they viewed Sunday worship as sinful and against the Moral law as well as the teachings of Christ.  

Moreover, they viewed the final Gospel call as featuring the 7th day Sabbath, so this doctrine became part of their Gospel eschatology.  Those that refused to give up the false Sabbath, Sunday, would have the mark of the beast, which beast was the RCC.

Mark of the Beast/ Sunday Laws
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/Mark-Beast-SundayLaws.htm

While the SDA’s were correct to point out the fraud of Sunday, are they correct about the Sabbath?  Well, they did get the right day; but not the correct doctrine.  They have embraced the Old Covenant teaching of the Sabbath, not the New Covenant doctrine that Christ teaches in the Gospels.  The Jews made the same mistake.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Kelly asked:  What is the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 speaks of and Jesus as well in Matt. 24. It is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus?  The SDA’s understand it to be the Sunday. Is Sunday a test for endtime Christians?

Tom said: The Gospel has nothing to do with Sunday laws.  The AOD has zero to do with Sunday laws, as the SDA’s teach.  In fact, when it comes to the book of Daniel, the SDA’s are very wrong and confused about many things.  Dr. Ford is a world-class expert on this ancient book, but the church leaders exiled him to make them look correct.  But it did not change the facts.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/Three-Angels-Message-once

At some point, the Adventist Community needs to repent for both 1888 and Glacier View, fully comprehend the Gospel and the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath.  They also need to uncover the final details about how the world will really end, take action to survive the great tribulation that Jesus teaches will come to the last generation.  This is the noble mission of the Advent Movement.  

Kelley said:  I have so many questions but this is enough for now.

Tom said:  There is a lot of information online at both All Experts and ATomorrow.  

Gospel regards,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484/Seventh-Day-Adventists/Tom-Norris.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

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Tom Norris

Expertise

I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.

Experience

Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform. http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

Education/Credentials
Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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