Seventh-Day Adventists/THE IJ / Pre-Advent Judgment

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Question
To be fair I would not rate anyone an EXPERT who has apostatized from truth. Having fallen off track into darkness unable to recover yourselves. This is just a very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation for you to have gotten yourselves into.

Those loving not the truth receive strong delusions are lost 2 Thes 2:11-12

Since the Bible is replete with with the teachings of a pre advent judgement why do you ignore this Biblical teaching in favour of warring against God and His remnant church.

How did you get yourselves into the blind alley and not able to see what is happening to yourselves?

Have the words of Ellen White been fulfilled? Have you in fact fallen off the path into the darkness and unable to recover because you are now so totally deluded that you can no longer see and staggering downhill to perdition?

Since you no longer accept the Teachings of the Bible why in fact bother? I wont waste much time here but why do you not try and find something useful to do with your time since what you are attempting will only bring harm to yourselves and others who are too weak and gullible to understand your heresies?

Answer
IJ Discussion Continued

John said:  To be fair I would not rate anyone an EXPERT who has apostatized from truth. Having fallen off track into darkness unable to recover yourselves. This is just a very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation for you to have gotten yourselves into.

Tom replied:  Stop pretending that the SDA’s have all possible truth, and that everyone else is wrong.  While they do have some remarkable truths, they also have many, many errors.  Neither the empirical evidence nor the NT supports such a self-centered and arrogant view.

So you are not being rational, fair, or honest.  What you think is great religious doctrine, the IJ as the PAJ, is great error and darkness, making it impossible for you to see Gospel Truth.

For those that claim to be Christian, the Gospel teachings of the NT define religious “truth.”  Those Christians that refuse to follow what Christ teaches can be said to be committing apostasy.  Not those that reject the double-talk and error of the SDA’s.

In fact, Jesus says no one should teach others, unless they first understand the topic fully and correctly.  At this point, the SDA’s are so confused and divided about doctrine that they should not be teaching anyone anything.  They need to repent and learn the Gospel and become honest with own church history before they can teach true doctrine to others.

Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

In case you missed it; the IJ represents the “log” in the SDA eye that must be removed in order for the Adventists to understand truth.  They need to stop correcting others and put their own divided house in order.  If not, they are “finished!”

Mark 3:24 “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

Mark 3:26 “If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!

Today, the SDA’s are great hypocrites and fools; they are not capable of teaching anyone the Gospel, much less how to be saved, because they no longer know how to define the New Covenant, much less the Three Angels Messages. They have been caught dishonestly manipulating Ellen White and denominational history, teaching many false doctrines in the process.   Especially the doctrine of the IJ/PAJ, which they claim is based in the Old Testament passage of Dan 8: 14 and linked to Rev 14: 7.  

The modern Adventists have a stubborn, Old Covenant mindset, even as they pretend to follow the New Covenant, which they do not understand.  But few are fooled today.  

The SDA’s represent, practice, and defend the Old Covenant, when they were supposed to be Protestant champions for the New Covenant. This is why millions have left the Denomination; because the SDA’s do not follow Jesus or teach the Gospel correctly.  They stand outside the New Covenant, enemies of the Gospel, which they do not understand.  (Just like the Jews).

See: Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

The Adventists represent the Jewish legalists in the early church that followed the apostle James and fought against Paul’s correct Gospel theology.   Which is to say that the SDA’s represent the “circumcision party” of the early church.  They are on the wrong side of this classic Gospel debate between law and Gospel; no longer knowing what is truth and what is not.

As a result, the SDA’s are full of confusion, dishonesty, division, and double-talk.  They are not following the Gospel teachings of Christ whatsoever, much less the Protestant Reformers or the Adventist Pioneers, even though they pretend otherwise.

Gal. 1:6  I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Gal. 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The modern Adventists are blind to the meaning of Galatians, and about their tragic 1888 history with that book.  As a result, they are in a “very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation.”  

However, they have no one to blame but themselves for their ignorance and present dysfunction, division, and schism.  Their refusal to be honest about Ellen White and her writings and the doctrinal development of the Three Angels Messages, as well as the 1888 debate over Galatians is shameful.  Such stubborn and willful blindness shows that they are very much like the wicked Jews that rejected Christ.  They think error is truth, and truth error.  Such spiritual blindness is fatal.

2Cor. 3:12  Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Listen to Ellen White make the point that the SDA’s are very much like the unbelieving Jews.  

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God.”

“For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

“What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!”

“The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness.”

“The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct.”

Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 252-253

Today, the SDA’s are as blind as the 1st century Jews that misunderstood and rejected the Gospel of Christ.  Just as the Jews misunderstood their own history, prophets, and writings, so too the SDA’s.  They both have things so confused that they think light is darkness and darkness light.

Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

The Jews never repented, much less became united on the Gospel.  Thus they were destroyed.  The SDA’s also refuse to repent, stubbornly resisting the Gospel and repudiating their Pioneers.  Thus they will share the same basic fate.  This is why they are self-destructing for all to see.   Like the Jews, they have been reproved before, but they never learn from their mistakes.

No IJ in 1847

John, when you quote Ellen White (in 1847, Word to the Little Flock) about staying on the proper Advent Path, you are very mistaken to think she is defending or promoting the IJ.  This is historically and theologically impossible.  Not only did it never happen, it could never take place.

Ellen White is pointing back to 1844 when the Adventists bravely proclaimed that the world would end with the 2nd Advent on October 22.  There was no concept or doctrine about the IJ or a PAJ at this time, (or in 1847).  

Only the 2nd Advent was the featured doctrine of the 1844 “Midnight Cry.” No IJ.  No PAJ.

Do you understand this historical fact?  Can you embrace this point of light, which will lead you to more light?  Or have you committed yourself to darkness beyond the point of repentance?

Luke 8:16  “Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”

Let all SDA’s understand: double-talk and propaganda are not the same as truth.  The SDA leaders have badly misinformed you and everyone else about Adventist history and theology and it needs to stop.   

Early Adventism had zero to do with the concept of a PAJ, much less the IJ.   There was no IJ in Rev 14: 7.  Not back in 1844, or today.  All SDA’s today need to acknowledge their great error about the IJ and REPENT.

I repeat: the Adventist people have been greatly deceived by their incompetent, legalistic, and corrupt leaders.  Glacier View, in 1980, was a fatal mistake.  This is where the 20th century SDA church officially LEFT the Advent Path.  Thus they have been following a false, IJ based view of the Three A’s ever sense, (false light), which is why the Adventists are blind, lost in the dark, self-destructing for all to see.  

But yet, they think they are “rich” in doctrine, “wealthy” with truth, having no errors for which to repent.  Poor, blind, unsaved SDA’s, they are a wretched, shameful group.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Listen carefully to Ellen White: No IJ in 1844

“They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble.”

Let everyone understand: This “bright light” to guide the Advent Movement forward was the 1844 doctrine of a literal 2nd Coming.  NOT THE IJ.  The 2nd Advent was a very controversial and “far out” doctrine for that time period, even as the IJ would not be invented until 1857.   Most rejected the 2nd Coming as false and thus rejected the Advent Path.  

Listen to more Ellen White and understand:

“Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.”

Again, Ellen White is speaking about those that “rashly denied” the doctrine of the SECOND COMING.  She is not, not, not, speaking about the IJ, which she had never heard of, because it did not exist at this time and would not exist for another 10 years!  (But even then, it was never viewed by the Pioneers as being located in Rev 14: 7 or the 1st Angels Message.)

Let every SDA understand: there is no doctrine of the IJ in the 1st Angels Message, as all modern SDA’s have been taught.  It is pure myth, legalism, and misdirection.  The facts cannot be refuted.  (Or perhaps you don’t want to admit the facts, so you can continue to pretend you are correct?  The Jews played this same game and so too many SDA’s.)

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Those SDA’s today that insist the IJ can be found in Rev 14: 7 are dead wrong. They are heretics that repudiate the Pioneers. Such refuse to acknowledge the facts of history and honestly embrace the doctrinal development of the Three Angels Messages.  They are denying what Ellen White teaches about Adventist eschatology, not supporting her as they claim.  

Ellen White Declares No Changes to 1st Angels Message:

"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}

Those that support the IJ are denying the facts of church history and NC theology.  They are an enemy of Ellen White, even as they think they support her.  They are blind fools.  They have fallen off the Advent Path and sit in the dark; yet they think they are following the light.  They are delusional, just like the 1st century Jews.

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."  The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

Ellen White makes it clear that no one can go back and change the past theological messages that defined the Advent Movement.  She makes it clear that it is impossible for the IJ to be located in the 1st Angels Message.  Thus she would she ever support such a dramatic recasting of the Three Angels Messages.  “Not a peg or pin” is to be changed or removed, much less the insertion of myth and legalistic error.

It is time for the SDA Community to understand the truth about the Ellen White, the IJ, and the Three Angels Messages.

Listen to more Ellen White:

“If ever a people needed true and faithful watchmen, who will not hold their peace, who will cry day and night, sounding the warning God has given, it is the Seventh-day Adventists. Those who have had great light, blessed opportunities, who like Capernaum have been exalted to heaven in point of privileges, shall they, by non-improvement, be left to darkness corresponding to the greatness of the light given?"  The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, p. 349.

"It is a grievous sin in the sight of God for men to place themselves between the people and the message that He would have come to them as some of our brethren are now doing. There are some who, like the Jews, are doing their utmost to make the message of God of none effect. Let these doubting, questioning ones either receive the light of the truth for this time, or let them stand out of the way, that others may have an opportunity of receiving the truth, that the wrath of God may not come on them because they are bodies of darkness, when He desires them to be bodies of light.”

SDA’s Mimic Jews

"Those who live just prior to the second appearing of Christ may expect a large measure of His Holy Spirit. If God has ever spoken by me, some of our leading men are going over the same ground of refusing the message of mercy as the Jews did in the time of Christ. If they turn away from the light, they will fail to meet the high and holy claims of God for this important time. They will fail to fulfill the sacred responsibility that He has entrusted to them.”

"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them . . . .

"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose.

Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness.

They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it.

They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness.

They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe."

Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven, pp. 286-287.

It is time for the Advent Community to pay close attention to the real Ellen White.  She is screaming for SDA’s to repent and return to the original and genuine theology of the Three Angels Messages.  She is not promoting the IJ whatsoever, much less teaching that it is fundamental doctrine from the 1st Angels Message.  

Is anyone listening?  No one in the White Estate, that is for sure.  They are the source for much myth and false doctrine, and they refuse to repent.

John said:  Those loving not the truth receive strong delusions are lost 2 Thes 2:11-12

Tom replied:  For SDA’s, the IJ is a very strong and fatal delusion.  So too are their twisted views about Ellen White, the Law, eschatology, and many things.  In fact, the SDA’s are so wrong about doctrine and church history, that they don’t even teach the Lord’s Supper correctly, much less the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which they do not fully understand as yet.  They are a confused, Old Covenant Denomination, even as the New Covenant is unknown to them.  

No wonder they have been judged by Christ in the real PAJ (Rev 3: 14) as wretched, blind, and naked. They have little to brag about.  They should hang their heads in shame.  The tithe paying, Old Covenant Sabbath keeping SDA’s are very much like the Jews that killed Christ.  Pity.

Ellen White; SDA’s Walking In Darkness

"My brethren and sisters, humble your hearts before the Lord. Seek him earnestly. I have an intense desire to see you walking in the light as Christ is in the light.

I pray most earnestly for you. But I cannot fail to see that the light which God has given me is not favorable to our ministers or our churches.

You have left your first love.

Self-righteousness is not the wedding-garment.

A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger.

The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people."

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 15, 1904.

Today, there is no excuse for anyone to believe that the IJ is part of the 1st Angels Message.  Ellen White never said or wrote such an impossible point and neither did Uriah Smith or any 19th century Adventist.  It is total myth and misdirection.

So why do the SDA’s believe a lie?  

Why do they claim to follow Ellen White, but then repudiate what she says about 1844 and the IJ?  

This is madness.  The White Estate is a house of lies for all to see.  The Denomination has gone blind.

The IJ is delusion, misdirection, and apostasy.  It will be fatal to the Advent Movement if not repudiated and removed from the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.  Ellen White demands its’ removal, but who is paying any attention to the real Ellen White of history?

Millions of innocent SDA’s have been led away from Christ and his Gospel and from the genuine theology of the Three Angels messages because of this myth about the IJ.  It has to stop.

Generations of Adventists have been taught a false and worthless view of the PAJ and even Ellen White.  It is time for the Advent Community to return to the genuine eschatology that is endorsed by the real Ellen White and all the Pioneers.  The White Estate is promoting not only a false prophet of their own making, but also a false version of the Three Angels Messages, also of their own making.  Both are poison.

Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

John said:  Since the Bible is replete with the teachings of a pre advent judgement why do you ignore this Biblical teaching in favor of warring against God and His remnant church.

Tom said:  The Bible teaches a final Judgment of the world, both in the OT and the NT.  Jesus also made this doctrine very clear.

Psa. 9:7  But the LORD abides forever;
  He has established His throne for judgment,

Psa. 9:8 And He will judge the world in righteousness;
  He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

Eccl. 12:13-14  The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

2Pet. 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Matt. 24:29  “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Matt. 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matt. 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In fact, Jesus teaches that many Christians will be shocked in the Day of Judgment to discover that they are not saved.  These legalists were too busy following a false Christ and being loyal to their various denominations to understand the genuine Gospel.  

Jesus makes it clear what happens to those that follow a false Christ and a distorted Gospel.  The same will happen to those that embrace the fraud of the IJ.  It is a fatal mistake.

Matt. 7:21  “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Moreover, the “remnant” church is not just the SDA’s, but all denominations in Laodicea.  They have all been judged guilty in the PAJ of the last church.


PAJ in the Bible

As for the general “concept” of a Pre Advent Judgment (PAJ); the OT is full of God’s judgment and wrath. Which is a form of PAJ.  This PAJ can be defined as punishment by God upon mankind, prior to the 2nd Advent.  This PAJ of God was often used against Israel or its enemies.  For example, while Israel was the beneficiary of God’s  (pre-advent) judgment against Egypt and their gods.  Later, God unleashed his (pre-advent) Judgments against Israel and other Nations.  Thus, God’s punishing actions can be viewed as a type of Pre-Advent Judgment.

1Chr. 16:14 He is the LORD our God;
  His judgments are in all the earth.

Ex. 6:6 “Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.

Ex. 12:12 ‘For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments — I am the LORD.

Ezek. 5:8 therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I, even I, am against you, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations.

Ezek. 5:15 ‘So it will be a reproach, a reviling, a warning and an object of horror to the nations who surround you when I execute judgments against you in anger, wrath and raging rebukes. I, the LORD, have spoken.

Ezek. 14:21  For thus says the Lord GOD, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!

Ezek. 11:9 “And I will bring you out of the midst of the city and deliver you into the hands of strangers and execute judgments against you.

Ezek. 30:14 “I will make Pathros desolate,
  Set a fire in Zoan
  And execute judgments on Thebes.

Ezek. 30:19 “Thus I will execute judgments on Egypt,
  And they will know that I am the LORD.”’”

We also discussed this earlier about Peter 4:17. This passage references Christian persecution as part of the pre-Advent judgments of God upon the Jews. See previous verse 16 “but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.”   This is the context, not some future judgment in heaven that started in 1844.

Such OT “judgments” against the Nations are obviously in the past, taking place long before the 2nd Advent, which has yet to take place.  They represent the pre- Advent Judgments of God.  Such a fact pattern supports the concept of a PAJ of the church, which is the New Covenant Nation of Israel.  

So the question is not whether there is a PAJ of the church in the Bible; but rather, “where is it?” and what does it say?

First off, the OT does not instruct the NC, much less judge the church.  Daniel has no standing to reprove anyone in the NC.  Thus no one should look for the PAJ of the church in the Old Covenant.  It can never be there.  Only the NT contains the PAJ of the church.

Second, Jesus is the Judge of the world and the church, of which he is also the head.  The PAJ of the church must be in the NT and Christ must also be involved as Judge.

John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

Third, Rev 3: 14 is the genuine PAJ of the last church.  For modern SDA’s, Rev 3: 14 must replace the error of Dan 8: 14.  If not the Advent Movement is finished.

Old / Wrong PAJ

Dan. 8:14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

New/ Correct PAJ

Rev. 3:14 -22 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:  The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15  ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Rev. 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev. 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Are any SDA’s listening?  Do they even care about truth anymore?

7 PAJ’s

While many assume there is one PAJ of the church, few comprehend that there are 7 (seven).  Revelation shows Christ pre-judging all seven era’s of the church, starting with Ephesus in Rev 2:1.  This means there are 7 different PAJ’s in the NT; one for each church era.  The PAJ of the LAST church, is not Dan 8: 14, as the SDA’s claim, but Rev 3: 14.  

Moreover, this PAJ of Laodicea has already taken place; and the last church has failed horribly.   Thus we have the written verdict of the PAJ in Rev 3: 14.  Where Christ demands all denominations, including the SDA’s, repent or be lost.

Why do the SDA’s pretend that Daniel, an OC Jew, is to Judge the Church when Christ is the Judge?  

Why do Adventists insist that Ellen White places the IJ in the 1st Angels Message when she never did?

Why do the SDA’s refuse to admit that Rev 3: 14 is the true PAJ of the last church?  

Why have the Adventists become so dishonest and incompetent, hostile to Jesus and to genuine Gospel / Adventist eschatology?  

When will they repent and understand the genuine PAJ for the last church, as well as the original version of the Three Angels Messages?

John said:  How did you get yourselves into the blind alley and not able to see what is happening to yourselves?

Tom said:  Anyone that thinks the Advent Movement was founded on the doctrine of the IJ is blind, deaf, and dumb.  Such a view is impossible, absurd, and against the Gospel, as well as the teachings of Ellen White and all the facts of history.   

No wonder the SDA’s are self-destructing?  They have long ago left the Advent Path, denying the very doctrines that empowered them forward through the Three Angels Messages.  Now they are way off the path, in the dark, pretending they are following the light from 1844, when they are doing no such thing.  

Matt. 6:22  “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is 1clear, your whole body will be full of light.

Matt. 6:23 “But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

John said:  Have the words of Ellen White been fulfilled? Have you in fact fallen off the path into the darkness and unable to recover because you are now so totally deluded that you can no longer see and staggering downhill to perdition?

Tom said:  Yes.  Ellen White’s early vision (that you quoted) is about how people react to the truth about the 2nd Advent.  She predicted that those who denied the 1844 “bright light” about the 2nd Coming would fall away from the Advent Path.  

You and many others are claiming this “bright light” is the doctrine of the IJ, which is impossible and very wrong.  Such are denying Ellen White and the doctrine of the 2nd Advent.  She has much to say to those that “rashly deny” the 1844 doctrine of the 2nd Coming, replacing it with the fraud of the IJ, or anything else.  

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Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light, which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah!

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far.

The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.

They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming.

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Notice that the end of the vision features the 2nd Coming, not the IJ, which did not exist at this time.  Also notice how difficult it is for those that have misunderstood the light of the 2nd Coming to regain their footing.  The IJ is darkness, not light.  It is not part of the genuine Three Angels Messages.  It is great error and delusion, deceiving millions.


Modern SDA’s In Darkness

In hindsight, the SDA Denomination has fulfilled this early vision.  They have officially taken their eyes off Jesus and the 1844 doctrine of the 2nd Advent, --replacing it with the false light of the IJ.  This fatal error has caused millions to “stumble” and fall off the Advent Path.   Ellen White was correct to see what has taken place and warn against it.

John, you and many others have been deceived.  You are not in the light or on the Advent Path.   The Three Angels Messages does not contain the IJ in its’ foundation and Ellen White never said otherwise.  Such a false construct will be fatal for the Advent Movement.

By embracing this popular, Takoma Park view of the Three A’s, you have “rejected” the genuine Battle Creek version, replacing it with only “part of the truths connected with the 3rd Angels Message.”  

Ellen White says this is wrong.  You must embrace the primary theology of the previous messages, exactly as they unfolded, or have nothing to do with any of the Three Angels Messages.  It’s an all or nothing proposition.

Listen to Ellen White make this point:

"In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."

"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."

Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858

In other words, the 1st Angels Message can never be revised to feature the IJ.  This was a huge, 20th century mistake that is ruining the Advent Movement.  Ellen White warned the Adventists to never forget or forsake the details about the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages, much less to ignore, change, or repudiate them.

Anyone that claims the IJ is the true light from 1844 is “in perfect darkness.”  Such have fallen away from the Advent Path; so badly deceived they don’t even know it.  Thus, the SDA church has been wretched and blind for generations, just as the real PAJ declares.

"Let the truths that are the foundation of our faith be kept before the people. … We are now to understand what the pillars of our faith are, --the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step."

Ellen White, Review and Herald, May 25, 1905.

While many viewed the above statement as supporting the IJ, it does the opposite.  Here Ellen White is making a plea for SDA’s to understand and embrace the correct doctrines from early Adventism.  The IJ was never part of either the 1st or 2nd Angels Messages, much less the reason for the existence of the SDA’s Denomination.  Traditional Adventism is dead wrong and false.  It has no support from Ellen White as claimed.  In fact, she warns against it.

Ellen White predicted that the SDA church would come to reject her views and self-destruct.  She was correct.  This has already taken place.  And the White Estate is the worst offender.  Ellen White does not support Traditional Takoma Park theology, which features the legalistic IJ in the 1st Angels Message.  She would call it false light and demand a return to the original and genuine theology of the Three Angels Messages.  Only the 2nd Advent was the Judgment Hour in Rev 14: 7.

Ellen White also said that the Adventist Community, at the end of time, would come to their senses and repent because of the discovery of the Laodicean Message, which is the true PAJ.  Then they would move forward to embrace the 4th Angels Message, which is the final Adventist message to the world.  

Listen to Ellen White:

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen.  I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans.  It will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver of the testimony, and it will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth.  This straight testimony some will not bear.  They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.

I saw that the testimony of the true Witness has not been half heeded.  The solemn testimony, upon which the destiny of the church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded.  This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified…

Some had been shaken out, and left by the way.  The careless and indifferent who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to agonize, persevere, and plead for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their numbers were immediately made up by others taking hold of the truth, and coming into the ranks.

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White, [1858]

While the Denomination has endured a number of great “shakings” and schisms, during both the Battle Creek and Takoma Park eras, there is still a major shaking yet to come.  This will not come about because of women’s ordination, or some minor point; but rather, because of the discovery of massive fraud in the White Estate.  A fraud so great that it has led the Advent Community far off the Advent Path, which is the Three Angels Messages.  

The correction of this fraud will expose the leaders as corrupt hypocrites, and their doctrines as worthless misdirection.  This will cause the final shaking, and split the Denomination once again into those that want to defend false tradition and those that want Gospel truth.  The present course is not sustainable.  The SDA’s are headed for disaster, even as they are also headed for reform.

Unfortunately, genuine Adventist reform has not taken place as yet.  The Denomination is corrupt, and the leaders have no plans to tell the truth, much less repent.  So long as they have supporters, such as yourself, continuing to embrace SDA myths and false doctrines about the Judgment, Ellen White, and the Three Angels Messages, they will cling to power.

John said:  Since you no longer accept the Teachings of the Bible why in fact bother? I wont waste much time here but why do you not try and find something useful to do with your time since what you are attempting will only bring harm to yourselves and others who are too weak and gullible to understand your heresies?

Tom said:  The IJ is a cultic doctrine for the gullible and uneducated.  There is no such doctrine in the Bible, much less in the early history of the Advent Movement.  Which is why no other denomination besides SDA’s has embraced this error.  

While you feel the need to brand anyone a heretic that refuses to embrace the IJ, such a closed and cultic attitude does not lead to the discovery of Gospel truth.  

The Bible does not teach the IJ.  Period!  Those that think otherwise are very gullible and misguided.  They had better lose their arrogant and legalistic attitudes and take time to seriously study the NT, educating themselves about Gospel doctrine and Adventist eschatology before it is too late.

This post is too long for the system.  For the rest of this response, see link below:

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?pid=12220#p12220

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com  

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Tom Norris

Expertise

I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Moreover, I can explain the historical and theological development of the SDA denomination from its beginning and on through the great Battle Creek schism that forced the SDA's to retreat to Takoma Park. Here the 20th century church recovered from their internal battles that had erupted at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis over the definition of the law and the Gospel. Fearing another repeat of this disaster, President Daniels, determined to hide this debate. However, this policy led to more conflict, especially over the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts. However, by the decade of the 1970`s, the church once again erupted into debate. The hierarchy settled the turmoil in 1980 with the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View. Here Dr. Ford was exiled because he supposedly disagreed with Ellen White over the Fundamentals. But this controversial action resulted in another major schism that is still in progress today.

Experience

Tom Norris was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist in Takoma Park, Md. He attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate. Over the years he has also interviewed a number of prominent Adventist scholars, theologians, and Pastors ranging from the late Arthur White to the exiled Dr. Desmond Ford. In addition, he has amassed a large private library, which includes numerous rare books and manuscripts about Adventist theology and history. He is presently the online editor of Adventist Reform, and can be found at Adventist for Tomorrow answering questions online about SDA theology and history as well as promoting Adventist Reform. http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

Education/Credentials
Tom Norris attended SDA grade and High schools, moving on to study Adventist theology at Columbia Union College. He also spent significant time conducting independent research in the General Conference Archives and the Ellen G. White Estate.

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