Seventh-Day Adventists/Proof of the unconscious state of the dead
Daniel wrote at 2007-08-27 17:13:01
Sal is correct that the Bible says "David did not go up to heaven". He is in the dust waiting for resurrection day. Moses waited in the dust too for an early resurrection. Jesus Himself waited for resurrection, unconscious.
Satan is still spreading his famous lie "You will not surely die" under defferent labels: reincarnation, an immortal soul that will live forever in heaven or in hell, we are little gods, we can be little gods, etc.
The truth is "Only God is immortal" 1 Tim 1:17. And you and I will receive immortality only after the "trumpet sound" 1 Cor 15:53.
Tim wrote at 2007-08-31 14:04:19
Sorry but the Bible does not support the SDA false teaching of soul sleep. Daniel does not understand the Bible which is a common problem among SDA people.
Reader wrote at 2007-12-02 01:59:43
I think you need to read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This passage speaks for itself. Good evening fellow Christian
Benyah wrote at 2008-02-13 03:28:33
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
...If any man shall add these things, God shall add unto him the plagues...
Lisa wrote at 2008-02-24 14:33:41
You Seventh Day Adventists confuse the body which sleeps in the dust of the ground until it is resurrected to be united with the soul which is very conscious. Pls note that the soul is never said to be asleep and resurrected. It is only the body that is said to be asleep and resurrected. That is the Bible teaching on the state of the dead. If you want to believe otherwise fine, but pls note your belief is in contradiction to the Bible. May God Help You to See the Truth.
Lenny wrote at 2008-03-13 22:22:58
What was your point? David died so what? He went to Hades until Christ came and took the righteous (and conscious I might add) dead to heaven. Wake up and believe the Bible not the SDA Church.
Mike C. wrote at 2010-01-04 19:02:21
I couldn't help but respond to your answer about the soul living on without the body when the bible states.
"Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
This passage clearly states that when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils man BECAME a living soul. Body + Breath of life = Soul. So the soul is not consious when the body is unconsious, for the soul is the body combined with the breath of life. Nowhere in the bible is the term immortal soul ever used to describe the nature of man, infact the only time the word immortal is used in the bible it is in refrence to God.
"1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
And when the word eternal is used in refrence to man's life it's always in the form of the promise of eternal life to the rightous at the first ressurection. So if we are promised eternal life that means that we are in no way immortal.
"1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
If you got something different from the scriptures I would love to hear about it.
JesusIScomingSOON wrote at 2010-04-18 21:11:58
The King James Version of the Bible is the most correct translation from its original lanugage of Hebrew and Greek. Thus, the KJV is the most accurate.
To find the answers we let the Bible speak for itself and proove itself. Looking at one verse is but a weak witness, this is why we need "two or more witenesses" to prove this reasoning of the state of the dead let's look at two or more verses.
First Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten."
Matthew 16:27 (The 2nd coming of Christ)
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and THEN He will reward each according to his works.
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My REWARD IS with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Jesus had to determine what the reward is to each individual BEFORE He comes.
So then, if you went to heaven or hell at your death, why would Jesus bring His reward after when He comes again? If your fate is already set then why would He call a judgement in Heaven to judge you again? As seen in Daniel 7:9-10 that says:
"And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before
Him. The court was seated,
And the books were opened."
This is the judgement that will take place in heaven.
So if people were already in heaven, why then would God be waiting around if His people were already in heaven?
That's because when you die, you don't go to heaven or hell. You sleep, until Christ resurrects you, at His second coming (the righteous), or after the millenial reign (the unrighteous).
So your life NOW, how you live it and think and do, will be what you will have to give account of on that day, as we see in 2 Corinthians 5:10:
"For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
Nkosinathi wrote at 2010-08-26 13:30:40
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [How sad that many have taken this for but a simple thing, failing to see God as God would love them to see Him...]
Lets let the bible speak to learn of God's lessons to man(both male and female) for his salvation:
"Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So here the first thing we learn is that man before he recieved the breath of life, he is nothing but dust from the ground (not a spirit at all).
"Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." The Lord God confirms this to man after his fall showing him that with all the oxygen he can get, he still needs God to live for he cannot give himself breath of life (none can breath life to a dead body).
"Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." According to the bible no one comes out of the grave (your grave may not be limited to 6 feet under, but even if they burnt you to ashes as it was with the many martyrs of Christ our Lord and Saviour and your ashes were scattered).
"Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." The Spirit of the Lord teaches us through Job that a man will wait in his grave till his Maker may come for him at an appointed time (for them that trust and obey the Lord): there is hope in Jesus our Lord.
There are others even among professed Christians who seek out them that connect the with the dead, not knowing that they consult devils "Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."
The children of Israel got into much trouble because of this "Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
"Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" There are some who do not regard this book and so I say remember this "2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Let us see: the bible tells us that when a man dies, all his emotions, plans and hopes die with him. he has no action of any kind "Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." I think and hope by now you know and get the full picture of what happens when someone dies. There are is indeed more scripture to prove this point.
Lets move on to the next part that makes this critical.
The LORD Most High said to man "Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Please note that God said in the day that thou eatest: this ment that they would receive the guarantee of death at the very moment of eating, and so Satan knew this well since he had already fallen, and used it as his deception and got Eve convinced to give Adam to eate, who was grieved and ate because of his love for Eve (Adam was not directly attacked). "Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." This was and is a very sad sad thing that happened. Satan got Eve to believe that she would as God and made her think that a knowledge of good and evil is the best for us to grow wiser. This proved to be the worst mistake in human history, for it put the Son of God, on the cross: I repeat, it is very sad indeed! And so the doctrine of the immortality of the soul had begun, and who could preach it better than the one who still today in this lie and many other lies robs and tries to rob as many as would not be mindful of these warnings of mercy. "2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Nkosinathi wrote at 2010-08-26 13:34:43
This is a continuation from my last comment as I was not allowed to get it through at once:
Let us get one thing clear: The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save us from our current death. He explains to us that the current death is sleep and not (and those that have done well in Him shall wake to life)"Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.". As the Lord described this current death, He called it sleep "Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."
So the child is dead "Mat 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn." "Mat 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
Mat 9:26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land."
Some have been slack and have been teaching of the parable of Lasarus as real and therefore missing the lesson it holds. This is what happend when Lasarus had died "Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Joh 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.". Christ was glad to give a view of His second coming, especially through one who had spent time in the grave, so as to remove all arguments. "Joh 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
Joh 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;" What the Lord did for Lazarus was and is a miracle of great hope and promise, removing all arguments against them that stood in hate, and so they chose lies instead of repenting from their sins and giving them all to Christ as many do this day!
There is one thing common about all those that the Lord had risen from the sleep of death: none of them had anything at all to say about what happens when one is dead.
If therefore Christ did not come to save us from the death we see today, then what death is it? "Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" This death is not ordinary death: "Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" So sin is waiting to give many a payment "Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Christ died the death of sin, because He came to save man from sin that he may not receive the wages of sin. Christ in never sinned although in the human flesh which contains sin, this was very possible (Victory Victory is to our LORD GOD, the only Victor against sin)"Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."
We are almost there bretheren:
God in the past has slowed done the rate of sin by destroying the world with a flood: the world of science has more evidence to prove this than they could even dream to prove evolution. He knew this would not destroy it. Now God promised never to destroy the world with a flood or perhaps we can just say water if you like. He also as we read on promised to destroy with sin eternal fire. I say sin beacause that is exactly the problem that brings death "Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." These angels are forever in sin. "Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;" What many have missed is that the fire is eternal and the soul(sinner)"Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.". Their smoke is put out as a symbol that never again shall they be, and to every man the torment shall be to the weight of the sins done. We can clearly see that Satan will suffer the longer that all and only God knows how long. No man can today say that Sodom is still burning (go there and you'll find nothing grows but yet the place was fruitful): the verse says the fire come out from God Himself. This fire is ment to destroy sin and the devils (sin originates in them), not people, but since they hold to sin, they die with sin.
"Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There is much more to share, may the Lord bless you all "1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
I stand with them that choose scripture to prove and uplift the truth of God, and they are my brothers, the SDA who know and stand in truth. Lift Up Christ And Tell The World!
Nkosinathi wrote at 2010-08-27 07:51:14
There is an error that I hope was not misunderstood:(He also as we read on promised to destroy with sin eternal fire.) I ment to say: [He also as we read on, promised to destroy sin with eternal fire]. The problem is sin because it leads to death, and Christ paid the price that you and I may live. Eternal fire stands eternal because it is of God's glory [NOT HELL "Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."]. "Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."
"Exo 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly."
Alexander wrote at 2011-04-28 07:22:50
Oh Really... What does Revelation 20 then talk about ? Who are dead in Christ if they are all in heaven ? And why do they need raised... get them back from heaven ? That makes complete sense
Marlon wrote at 2012-04-11 04:31:24
where as its important to observe the context of any argument one can not ignore the substance of the facts that are presented.
And the facts as presented by Peter is that David grave is here with us today and David has not ascended any where. So to play blind to factual arguments as presented in a contextual statement is like saying there are no other truths that can be learned.
John wrote at 2016-04-15 21:29:30
Fascinating. We tend to discuss things in "our understanding" of God's time.... whereas "in a twinkling of an eye" could be interpreted that there is no difference between the time of death and the time of the final resurrection...so no soul is "asleep".... and what difference does it make to salvation???