Expert: Jonathan Wright - 5/7/2006

Question
After reading so much about lions vs tigers, how about some speculation about some smaller big cats: leopard vs jaguar vs puma (I know...different habitats, etc.) Thanks.------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Purely for speculation, not sadism -
1. pit bull vs. wolf
2. cocodile vs. shark of equal size
3. rhino vs. hippo on land
4. grizzly vs. the winnner in #3
4. male alpha gorrila vs. similar orangotan

Thanks!
Answer -
Dear Emmet

Thanks for your questions. Please note that I don't agree with animal fights and that most animals will avoid fights if they have no realistic chances of winning. The potential combatants weigh up their relative strengths and weaknesses and the stronger animal usually allows the weaker one to escape. I think this would be the same case in inter-species confrontations. Most predators will prey on animals smaller than they are and will not risk injury with an animal of similar size. If an animal is severely injured during a fight, it will be very vulnerable to other animals and, even if it survives, will have a less varied diet and may die of starvation, even if its wounds recover. In compiling the information below, I have visited several websites and have incorporated some research I did for earlier questions. Please note that all answers are speculative and none of them can be used to prove that in any confrontation, an individual of one species would always win against an individual of another species.   I would advise you to look at http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx, which has 28 pages of correspondents speculating   about animal fights. Please note that I have only studied the first five pages, as they tend to be rather repetitive and it can be confusing to work out which animals are fighting which.
         
1. pit bull vs. wolf  http://www.wolfsa.org.za/content_behaviour.htm says that the wolf has twice the biting power of a dog. ticketoride (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts113697.aspx)says that pound for pound a pit bull is tougher than a wolf, but says the wolf would win. While the wolf has a better biting power, the pit bull is bred to fight and would probably launch into an attack, wounding the wolf before the wolf had time to react. Unless the wolf were habituated to dogs or humans, it would tend to retreat. If escape were impossible, a wolf would fight back and could hold its own against a pit bull. I just feel that the initial ferocious attacks of a pit bull would wound the wolf sufficiently that it would have little energy to fight back, especially if it had open wounds, which the pit bull could exploit.

2. crocodile vs. shark of equal size. http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers54.html mentions the Discovery Channel's computer-generated simulated fight between a crocodile and a shark. The shark bumped the crocodile, which maddened the crocodile. The crocodile attacked the shark and grabbed it. Both sank to the bottom. The crocodile surfaced for air and the shark bit chunks out of its soft under-belly and killed it. http://shopping.discovery.com/product-55691.html says the crocodile has stronger jaws. The Useless Men (http://uselessmen.blogspot.com/2006/04/question-267-crocodile-vs-great-white.htm) discuss a fight between a crocodile and a great white shark. The crocodile wins, but the scenario is not serious. Alastair Lyon (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct2001/1002745720.Zo.r.html) says that it is unlikely that a shark would fight with a crocodile, although he thinks that a large crocodile would win a fight with a tiger shark. Some correspondents (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts113697.aspx) thought a great white shark would beat a crocodile, one saying that the shark would tear the crocodile to pieces. ticketoride (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts113697.aspx)  and the noodler (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage4.aspx) said that a great white shark would beat a crocodile.
http://community.discovery.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/16010835/m/5851971118/r/59 predicts that a great white shark would beat a salt-water crocodile, as it is bigger and more fearsome and has a mouth full of deadly teeth. The crocodile may reach 16 ft long, while the shark may reach 25 feet and has better weapons, as well as being more aggressive.

http://community.discoverychannel.ca/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/34910522/m/53810123 says that a great white shark beat a crocodile on Animal Face-off (see http://www.tv.com/saltwater-croc-vs.-great-white-shark/episode/321728/summary.ht). Correspondents discussed a possible fight between a crocodile and a tiger shark. One person thought that the contestants are evenly matched. The crocodile has armoured skin, greater weight and bone-crushing jaws armed with rows of sharp teeth. The shark's jaws can crush turtle shells and the shark has great manoeuvrability and warm blood. A crocodile can fight on after losing a leg, but the tiger shark can't open its jaws wide enough to encircle the crocodile's body. One correspondent says that because salt-water crocodiles can beat great white sharks, they would have no problem beating a smaller tiger shark.

http://www.strangezoo.com/content/item/109509.html shows a hungry saltwater crocodile attacking a bull shark on a mud flat in Queensland, Australia. The crocodile savaged the shark when it entered its territory.

I think that the outcome of the fight depends on the habitat and the species concerned. Most crocodiles live in freshwater, while most sharks live in seas and oceans, although there are some freshwater sharks, while some crocodiles can live in seawater. I think the crocodile would aim for a fin or the nose of a shark, while keeping its limbs against its body. The shark and crocodile are both armoured, but I think that the shark's skin is more vulnerable than the crocodile's. I think that an aggressive crocodile would probably beat a shark of the same size, but I hope that this fight will not occur.

3. rhino vs. hippo on land. http://members.aol.com/HippoPage/hrquest.htm#part3 says that hippos and African rhinos are of similar size, have formidable weapons (the rhino's horns and the hippo's tusks) and are fierce fighters when aroused. The author thinks the hippo would win and cites Bernhard Grzimek's essay "The African Black Rhinoceros," from Grzimek's Animal Life Encyclopedia, 1972, XIII, 57-58. A hippo surfaced in a pond, grabbed a black rhino's front leg, pulled it down and tore it to pieces with its huge tusks. A correspondent at http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts113697.aspx said that the hippo would win due to its stronger jaws and bite. http://members.aol.com/HippoPage/debate.htm has several people debating a possible fight. Matthew Patten thinks the rhino would win and that the rhino's horns would get through the hippo's layers of fat. Countess Laylanie says the rhino would win because rhinos are more aggressive, have horns and are less lazy than hippos. Ramon Valencia on the same page backs the hippo, although he mentions sites where hippos and rhinos live together peacefully. He says that white rhinos tend to avoid confrontation. A rhino usually charges out of fear or confusion. Hippos are fiercely territorial and do not hesitate to attack intruders. They constantly fight amongst each other to determine superiority and dominance. The hippo's outer layer of fat protects its muscles and internal organs during fights.  Hippos' jaws have great power and can bite canoes and crocodiles in half.  hippo's outer layer of fat is actually quite functional. It provides insulation and buoyancy in the water, and it protects the animal's muscles and internal organs in a fight. Hippos can quickly twist and change directions. Rhinos prefer to fight by lowering their heads and charging at an opponent to try and gore it with its horns. Hippos attack the enemy's flanks. Rhinos have poor eyesight. Ramon Valenia believes the combatants would circle each other before the rhino would charge the hippo's midsection. The hippo would twist to the side and bite the rhino's flank. This would be repeated when the rhino charged again. The hippo's fat would help protect it from serious wounds from the rhino's horns. Ramon Valencia reckons the rhino would collapse from blood loss or the hippo would bite down on one of the rhino's legs. One writer suggests that rhinos would win some fights, while hippos would win others. Bussy said that the hippo would win a fight in water, while the rhino would be more likely to win on land. David Herbert agrees that the hippo would win in water, due to its teeth, strength and ability to stay under water, as well as the possibility of drowning the rhino. Jack mack (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage9.aspx) thought the rhino would run away. Several correspondents reckon that the rhino would win on land, although the consensus seems to be that the hippo's jaws are more than a match for the rhino's horns, so I shall give the benefit of the doubt to the hippo.

4. Grizzly vs. the winnner in #3 Christopher Pickwell (http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict14.html) says that brown bears may take moose, caribou and musk ox. Please note that grizzle bears do not naturally come into contact with hippos and any fight would be purely artificial. A correspondent in http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006031909635 says the hippo would win because of its larger jaws and more massive body. Most other contributors agreed, although one said that bears were more aggressive and had larger canines, while another said that the bear would win on land, because of its greater speed. Handsome n honest (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage7.aspx) says the hippo will win against a bear, due to its mouth and fat. The contributor suggests that the bear is faster and would strike first, using its claws, but the hippo would clamp down on the bear's body, breaking the rib cage and suffocating the bear. I would give the hippo the edge in a fight.

5. male alpha gorilla vs. similar orang-utan (4/5). ticketoride (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts113697.aspx) considers a fight between a grizzly and a gorilla. He says that a gorilla has a higher strike force than a grizzly and could kill the bear. It can lift 10 times its own bodyweight. Its bite force may be 1,300-1,400 pounds of force. A silverback can become very enraged if attacked or if his family is threatened. I only found one site mentioning a fight between a gorilla and an orang-utan, but I couldn't open it. I would give my vote to the gorilla for this one – it is stronger, bigger and more powerful. The orang-utan has a powerful armspan, but I don't think it has any other major advantages against the gorilla.

Please note that all of my comments are speculative and that I hope that these fights will not be enacted in real life.

All the best

Jonathan

Answer
Dear Emmet

Thanks for your follow up question. As there are over 30 species of wild cat, I cannot go into detail about all the permutations, especially as many species are so little known that it would be difficult to determine their fighting abilities.


Jaguar:
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict14.html says the jaguar is the ultimate carnivore. A big 300-pound jaguar can kill a Sumatran tiger or a lion of similar size. It has the most powerful jaws of any cat, having developed strong, crushing jaws with stout canines to prey on armoured, aquatic reptiles. It has a ferocious attack, biting through an animal's skull.
http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/Rare_snow_leopard_killed_by_jaguar_.html has details about a jaguar killing a snow leopard, by slashing its leg. Scott 1 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a jaguar would have no problems beating a 250 lb lion. Longte (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a jaguar could beat a puma and a leopard and could beat a Sumatran tigress in its own environment, although Ticketoride, Scott 1111, luvinlittleyellow jacket and Longte (again??) (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckon that a larger a tiger would beat a jaguar, possibly mauling it, although luvinglittleyellow jacket reckons a jaguar could win if it got its bite in first. Roaul (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a jaguar would beat a cheetah.

Leopard
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5624077328996805168&pl=true shows a video of a leopard fighting a lion. Scott 1 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) says a leopard can kill a crocodile, but may also be a victim.

Leopard versus puma
Frrosty (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a leopard would beat a puma. http://community.discoverychannel.ca/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/34910522/m/69110434 is a debate. ‘White Cougar' says that leopards will beat Argentinean cougars on 85% of occasions, Venezulean cougars on 70% of occasions, but the Northern Canadian cougars (the biggest and strongest forms) on only 50%. The writer considers the cougar may have the advantage as it is bigger, has a more powerful swipe, larger and more powerful forepaws and shorter forelegs are shorter, so it is more compact and better for killing. Persian Leopard' says that the leopard is stronger, fiercer and has more brute force and much better fighting skills.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage9.aspx also discusses a fight between the leopard and cougar, but has advocates for each cat, as well as someone saying the outcome is too close to call.

Puma
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict14.html alludes to a film showing a puma using its paws to fend off a grizzly bear. Soba (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) said that a puma would beat a wolf. Cosmo's left the pound (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a puma would beat a leopard. Ticketoride (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) proposes a fight between a puma and a cougar, although they are different names for the same species! Scott 1 and Majestic Lizard returns (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckon a wolverine would beat a puma, but would not kill it. Bigbadbowwow (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a wolf would beat a puma.

Cheetah
Scott 1 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) says that occasionally a cheetah can stand up to a hyena, although ticketoride (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a cheetah is easily injured and usually loses out to a hyena; Frrosty (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) also reckons the hyena would win.

Sabre-toothed tiger
Steve93437 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a sabre-toothed tiger would beat a grizzly bear, although Ticketotide (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons the bear would be stronger and the sabre-tooth would have little impact.

Bobcat
ScottRapid and handsome n honest (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckon a bobcat would beat a raccoon, while Scott 1111 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons a bobcat would beat a wild cat.

Obviously, a lot depends on habitat and an adaptable species, such as a leopard or puma, would have an advantage against a specialist, although I think that a snow leopard or lynx would do well in the snow, while a margay would show spectacular climbing skills in trees, although it would succumb against larger cats on the ground. Jaguars, fishing cats, jaguarundis and flat-headed cats would have an advantage if a fight took place in water, which many species of cats avoid. Scott 1 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/113697datingPostpage2.aspx) reckons the clouded leopard is the most agile cat, followed by the leopard and puma.

If I were to place the cats in order and I disregard the lion and tiger, the strongest cat must be the jaguar and then I would list the leopard. I would probably place the puma next, followed by the snow leopard and the clouded leopard. I would put the cheetah fairly low down, as it gives up its prey so easily to other predators. Some of the smaller cats are quite feisty. For example, the European wild cat can protect its cubs against people, so I think it would do well against other small cats. Among the small cats, I also place the lynxes high up with the European wild cat. Other than that, it is difficult to place the cats. It would probably be easiest to place them in size order, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the larger cats would win fights with smaller cats.

I hope this helps.

All the best

Jonathan